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No UTR for SA100

Arrrrgh!

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One-man band ltd.

Husband is sole director/employee, 50/50 shareholder (different classes) with wife. Husband has salary of the basic c£8k, wife employed elsewhere. Wife is Co Sec  

If dividends have been declared to the wife, but she’s not registered with HMRC to file a SA100, what can I do before 31 Jan? There’s stupidly no option on the online SA registration form for ‘I receive dividend income’, only for self-employment & the chances of me actually speaking to some on a phone line is circa zilch.

Glad (embarrassed/ashamed - rite of passage?!) to say this is the first time we’ve ‘forgotten’ to make sure that everyone had a UTR early. 

[excuse the bad grammar - it’s been a long long day already. I know I’d be the first to point it out]

Replies (23)

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By willkyne.blueyonder.co.uk
18th Jan 2018 17:46

I don't have an answer but have the same problem. I've applied for a UTR for several clients after the October deadline and some have been issued and some not. Most of these clients fall into the shareholder spouse scenario who previously did not need to file a return. I fully accept that the delay is my mistake. However, it would be good to get a response from HMRC as to what is to be done.

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RLI
By lionofludesch
18th Jan 2018 17:47

You're already late, aren't you ?

You should have notified by the beginning of October.

Just apply for a UTR and appeal against any penalty the client gets on the grounds that Dividend Tax is new and how could the laywoman be expected to know?

Be optimistic.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
ALISK
By atleastisoundknowledgable...
18th Jan 2018 17:55

lionofludesch wrote:

Be optimistic.

I like it. PMA.

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By Wanderer
18th Jan 2018 18:04

atleastisoundknowledgable... wrote:

There’s stupidly no option on the online SA registration form for ‘I receive dividend income’, only for self-employment & the chances of me actually speaking to some on a phone line is circa zilch.

Use the "I've untaxed income which cannot be coded in PAYE" box.
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My photo
By Matrix
18th Jan 2018 19:13

I assume that tax is due on the dividends or you wouldn't be asking the question. Once the notice to file is issued then you have 3 months to file so it would only be late notification penalties. I have no experience of these but others have previously commented that these are not usually levied.

Or get the dividends added to her tax code instead, although for 16-17 this would have had to be before 30 Dec.

If there is no UTR before 31 Jan then apparently you can pay the tax using the NI number since this is still due 31 Jan.

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Replying to Matrix:
By Paul D Utherone
18th Jan 2018 19:42

Matrix wrote:

If there is no UTR before 31 Jan then apparently you can pay the tax using the NI number since this is still due 31 Jan.


That being so then so long as once the return is required you get it in within three months there's no late filing penalty, and if you've paid the tax on the NI No by 31/1/18 there should be no late notification penalty either as that's tax based.
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Replying to Paul D Utherone:
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By atleastisoundknowledgable...
18th Jan 2018 19:56

Excellent news - thanks all!

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Replying to Paul D Utherone:
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By willkyne.blueyonder.co.uk
18th Jan 2018 20:12

That's really helpful - thank you.

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Replying to Paul D Utherone:
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By atleastisoundknowledgable...
19th Jan 2018 12:29

This might be a stupid question ... but in this circumstance, does she need to have paid to PoA by 31 Jan as well, or just the 2016/17 liability?

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Replying to atleastisoundknowledgable...:
RLI
By lionofludesch
19th Jan 2018 12:42

To avoid the late notification penalty ?

Just the 2016/17 tax.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By atleastisoundknowledgable...
19th Jan 2018 12:52

Amazing - this gets better & better (rubbing hands in glee).

So when we do eventually file the tax return, presumably it's with £nil in the PoA boxes?

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Replying to atleastisoundknowledgable...:
RLI
By lionofludesch
19th Jan 2018 13:03

Why would you think that ?

There are other penalties/interest charges to avoid.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By atleastisoundknowledgable...
19th Jan 2018 13:12

lionofludesch wrote:

Why would you think that ?

Someone told me to ...

lionofludesch wrote:

Be optimistic.

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Replying to atleastisoundknowledgable...:
RLI
By lionofludesch
19th Jan 2018 13:22

Optimistic.

Not crazy.

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Me
By John Charman
18th Jan 2018 22:15

I can confirm agreement with others who have said that once the return is issued then you have 3 months.

I would recommend paying the tax ASAP though in order to avoid failure to notify and late payment penalties,

The best way to get a UTR for a dividend receiving spouse is to use form SA1

https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/shortforms/form/SA1

Use the part that says 'any other reason' and bring the spouse in from the appropriate date.

Regards,

John

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Replying to John Charman:
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By Wanderer
18th Jan 2018 22:22

John Charman wrote:

The best way to get a UTR for a dividend receiving spouse is to use form SA1

https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/shortforms/form/SA1


Used to be a brilliant service.
Since about last April we've had NONE processed as a result of completing that on-line form.
In every case we've had to follow up with phone calls, paper copy & manual 64-8.
Even then success is sporadic.
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My photo
By Matrix
18th Jan 2018 22:39

As an aside, please note that Co Sec will not be sufficient to claim ER on any future disposal so, if this is desired, you may wish to discuss making her a Director or employee once you have sorted out this issue. I know this has nothing to do with your question but family businesses seem to be transferring shares to use up dividend allowances without forward tax planning.

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Replying to Matrix:
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By atleastisoundknowledgable...
18th Jan 2018 22:48

As it so happens, her employment contract specifically prevents her from holding a directorship. However, it’s a good think to keep in mind for other companies, so thanks.

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Replying to Matrix:
By cfield
28th Jan 2018 18:24

Matrix wrote:

As an aside, please note that Co Sec will not be sufficient to claim ER on any future disposal. /p>

I must beg to differ on this one Matrix. You only need to be an officer or employee of the company to claim ER. The role of company secretary is officially an office and the incumbent thus counts as being an officer.

I queried this in tax lectures a couple of times in the early years of ER, as it sounded just a bit too good to be true, but was always told it counts as being an officer for ER, so long as you've served the requisite 12 months up to the date of disposal of course.

You may run into problems if the company was created after it became no longer legally necessary to appoint somebody as secretary. Under the articles that office may not even exist, so you can't claim to be filling it. If so, just pass a resolution to create it. You can't backdate it though, so the 12 month clock would only start ticking from that date. In that case, be careful when you choose to strike off the company. Wait a bit longer if necessary.

Of course, these days there are other risks to watch out for when claiming ER, such as the tax avoidance motive, but if the company is genuinely no longer required (in the wake of the public sector IR35 rules perhaps) these new rules shouldn't be a problem.

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By DMGbus
19th Jan 2018 09:21

Paying tax due under SA without a UTR - an Aweb article from 2010:
https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/tax/personal-tax/no-utr-a-guide-to-your-...

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By marlin
19th Jan 2018 14:22

One of my (new) clients got a UTR immediately on calling HMRC helpline

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By LindaALB
22nd Jan 2018 10:52

I had similar problem with one director, applied for UTR in May but was never issued to him tried to chase it but agents can’t do much as with out UTR you can’t authorise yourself. Finally had to call client in to sort this & we both called HMRC few days ago and after they verified director they gave him UTR over the phone. I perused the fact that our attempt receiving has been ignored and HMRC could not explain why hasn’t been received before.

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By Anthony G Thorne
22nd Jan 2018 14:26

This highlights the complexity of the tax system is it not now time to have only one reference with HMRC either NI number or UTR?

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