OK, I'll bite - don't mind exposing my ignorance

OK, I'll bite - don't mind exposing my ignorance

Didn't find your answer?

What, in a nutshell (ie layman's terms, understandable by the man on the Clapham omnibus) is the difference between being "in the customs union" and being "in the single market"?

Replies (27)

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By bajones
17th Jan 2017 08:41

I don't think you need worry yourself about either.

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Replying to bajones:
Out of my mind
By runningmate
17th Jan 2017 08:45

bajones wrote:

I don't think you need worry yourself about either.


I agree.
For what it's worth I think a customs union means no tariffs & no customs paperwork when goods / services cross international borders within the union.
I think the single market means a customs union plus a common structure of laws & regulations governing consumer protection, trading standards, etc.
But I may be wrong.
RM
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By ms998
17th Jan 2017 09:21

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36083664

This provide a decent overview

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Out of my mind
By runningmate
17th Jan 2017 10:01

We shall know more later today, but I think the PM's plans are incompatible with membership of the single market or customs union.
There is still the possibility of remaining in the European Free Trade Area (EFTA). That would mean zero tariffs on a lot of goods imported from / exported to rEU but would allow the UK freedom of manoeuvre with regard to immigration, customs duties on goods from outside the EU, agriculture & fisheries policies, etc.
That sounds a sensible way forward to me.
RM

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Replying to runningmate:
Locutus of Borg
By Locutus
17th Jan 2017 10:20

runningmate wrote:

We shall know more later today, but I think the PM's plans are incompatible with membership of the single market or customs union.
There is still the possibility of remaining in the European Free Trade Area (EFTA). That would mean zero tariffs on a lot of goods imported from / exported to rEU but would allow the UK freedom of manoeuvre with regard to immigration, customs duties on goods from outside the EU, agriculture & fisheries policies, etc.
That sounds a sensible way forward to me.
RM

We can't "remain" within EFTA as we are not in it at the moment - we helped form it, but left when we joined the EEC.

We could apply to join re-join it, but our application might not necessarily be accepted, as some concerns have been voiced by members that the UK would inevitably dominate it, as it would by far be the largest member.

A problem for the UK, with EFTA's relationship with the EU, is that the EU insists on freedom of movement. Immigration control seems to be a red line for the UK.

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Replying to runningmate:
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By Mr_awol
17th Jan 2017 11:50

runningmate wrote:

I think the PM's plans are incompatible with membership of the single market or customs union
RM

I'm impressed by your optimism that the PM has a plan.

What has happened in modern day politics? Irrespective of their party colours, there just doesn't seem to be any credible candidates that anybody in their right mind would vote for any more.

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Replying to Mr_awol:
RLI
By lionofludesch
17th Jan 2017 11:57

Mr_awol wrote:

runningmate wrote:

I think the PM's plans are incompatible with membership of the single market or customs union
RM

I'm impressed by your optimism that the PM has a plan.

What has happened in modern day politics? Irrespective of their party colours, there just doesn't seem to be any credible candidates that anybody in their right mind would vote for any more.

There was no plan because no-one - on either side - expected us to leave.

As to the paucity of talent, it's largely because none of them (or very few) have any knowledge of real life as they've never had proper jobs. They've all learnt their trade on university courses where the situations are sterile and unrealistic.

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RLI
By lionofludesch
17th Jan 2017 10:33

The Channel Isles aren't in the EU yet they trade freely with the EU.

Works for them. You don't see a lot of poor folk there.

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Out of my mind
By runningmate
17th Jan 2017 13:09

Rather to my surprise, I thought the PM spoke a lot of sense in her speech today.
We will not remain within the single market. We will not remain full members of the customs union (which would prevent us from negotiating our own trade deals with countries outside the EU).
We will not allow unrestricted movement of people into the UK. We will not pay vast contributions to the EU budget.
We will attempt to negotiate a free trade deal with the EU. We will be prepared to join some EU projects & pay contributions to them.
If the only deal the EU will offer is a bad deal for the UK then there will be no deal & negotiations will have failed.
There will be a parliamentary vote on the acceptance of whatever deal is negotiated (but by implication no referendum on it).
There may be phased implementation of the new arrangements.

What's not to like about that?
RM

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Replying to Laughing Accountant:
Portia profile image
By Portia Nina Levin
17th Jan 2017 15:06

Here's Johnny!

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Replying to Portia Nina Levin:
By Ruddles
18th Jan 2017 08:18

Ooooh ... I wonder if we're going to see a new member called F***Portia? Or "Portia is a stalker"?

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Replying to Laughing Accountant:
RLI
By lionofludesch
17th Jan 2017 16:34

Laughing Accountant wrote:
.....close our borders.....

Will we be able to get out ?

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Replying to Laughing Accountant:
By Ruddles
17th Jan 2017 20:49

Someone else exposing his ignorance.

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By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
17th Jan 2017 17:42

I am bemused how May thinks she will get a free trade deal when not in the free trade area.

Free trade comes with conditions, paying in club subs, obeying club rules which includes freedom of movement.

If we got free trade whilst being outside of the EU, then the UK would be free to negotiate lower tarrifs for (say) Chinese solar, import them into the UK in bulk, box them up in the UK with some EU instructions, reimport into the EU. The only way you get free trade is by being in the same customs union, or you are in a la-la land deal where you are technically not in a customs union, but have to have all your deals mirror the custom's union deal so as not to fall foul of the rules to avoid the rouge state arbitraging around them.

It just seems bonkers to suggest otherwise to me, but what do I know, stupid immigrant family I come from, we are of course responsible for all problems in the UK.

Also bemused what use a vote in parliment is after article 50 is triggered. So they vote against the deal in 2 years time..........and..................er.............thats it.

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
RLI
By lionofludesch
17th Jan 2017 18:12

The UK is the biggest consumer in the EU.

People want to sell stuff to us.

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
Out of my mind
By runningmate
17th Jan 2017 20:07

ireallyshouldknowthisbut wrote:

I am bemused how May thinks she will get a free trade deal when not in the free trade area.

Free trade comes with conditions, paying in club subs, obeying club rules which includes freedom of movement.

If we got free trade whilst being outside of the EU, then the UK would be free to negotiate lower tarrifs for (say) Chinese solar, import them into the UK in bulk, box them up in the UK with some EU instructions, reimport into the EU. The only way you get free trade is by being in the same customs union, or you are in a la-la land deal where you are technically not in a customs union, but have to have all your deals mirror the custom's union deal so as not to fall foul of the rules to avoid the rouge state arbitraging around them.

It just seems bonkers to suggest otherwise to me, but what do I know, stupid immigrant family I come from, we are of course responsible for all problems in the UK.

Also bemused what use a vote in parliment is after article 50 is triggered. So they vote against the deal in 2 years time..........and..................er.............thats it.


A couple of points.
The EU has trade deals with the US & Japan which do not involve them paying subs to the EU etc.
So a trade deal with the UK is a possibility. My concern would be that the process of getting the 27 member states to agree on anything will be tortuous in the extreme! Bear in mind that Mr Cameron did not find it possible to negotiate an agreement which was acceptable to the people of the UK. In many ways the negotiations after Article 50 will be more difficult than those negotiations.
Of course any deal would have to handle the risk of the UK importing goods, re-badging them, and then exporting them to the EU. (I think the Norway deal has something in it about that.)
As to the vote in parliament, I assume the options will be (1) we leave the EU on the terms negotiated or (2) we leave the EU with no deal at all. In that case presumably WTO tariffs would apply.
RM
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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
Locutus of Borg
By Locutus
18th Jan 2017 08:37

Lots of countries across the world have free trade deals with each other and indeed a number have free trade deals with the EU, whilst not being a member of the EU's single market or customs union.

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Replying to Locutus:
Out of my mind
By runningmate
18th Jan 2017 08:59

Two points worth remembering.
Whatever Brexit deal may be agreed it will inevitably be less advantageous for the 27 than the current arrangement. The 27 just have to live with that.
Surely any international financial institution based in London will now be planning to beef up its offices on mainland Europe & slim down in London.
RM

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Replying to Locutus:
By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
18th Jan 2017 09:16

"a number have free trade deals with the EU" They do? Who?

Turkey is in customs union.

I am pretty sure we pay import tariffs to everyone else. Eg if you import goods from the US to the UK there are tariffs. Yes we have a trade deal, but not free trade. Free trade = no tariffs, no quotas.

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By tax novice
17th Jan 2017 20:37

Single market= no tafriifs (extra vat for us lot)

Customs union = no paper work ( the stuff that earns us money)

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Replying to tax novice:
RLI
By lionofludesch
18th Jan 2017 09:44

Tafriifs ?

Turn on spell check.

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paddle steamer
By DJKL
18th Jan 2017 10:28

Well, having spent a fair bit of time in the 1970s, first at school and then at University, studying both History and Economic History, and remembering the joys of reading about tariff reforms as we trudged through the later 19th century/early twentieth century ,dry as dust, catalogue of never ending sheer tedium, it is really good to see that the Conservatives are following through with their rhetoric to reintroduce Victorian values; they obviously want to replay history.

I think we need to have some pity for the schoolchildren from say 2100 onward and the sorts of questions they will be asked,

" Did the events of 2016 inevitably lead to the widespread reintroduction of protectionist policies and the subsequent trade wars? Discuss"

Awful re subject, awful re thought.

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Replying to DJKL:
RLI
By lionofludesch
18th Jan 2017 11:08

DJKL wrote:

Well, having spent a fair bit of time in the 1970s, first at school and then at University, studying both History and Economic History, and remembering the joys of reading about tariff reforms as we trudged through the later 19th century/early twentieth century ,dry as dust, catalogue of never ending sheer tedium, it is really good to see that the Conservatives are following through with their rhetoric to reintroduce Victorian values; they obviously want to replay history.

I think we need to have some pity for the schoolchildren from say 2100 onward and the sorts of questions they will be asked,

" Did the events of 2016 inevitably lead to the widespread reintroduction of protectionist policies and the subsequent trade wars? Discuss"

Awful re subject, awful re thought.

Alternatively, the UK can come to a free trade agreement with the EU. Like the US has.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
18th Jan 2017 11:25

lionofludesch wrote:

DJKL wrote:

Well, having spent a fair bit of time in the 1970s, first at school and then at University, studying both History and Economic History, and remembering the joys of reading about tariff reforms as we trudged through the later 19th century/early twentieth century ,dry as dust, catalogue of never ending sheer tedium, it is really good to see that the Conservatives are following through with their rhetoric to reintroduce Victorian values; they obviously want to replay history.

I think we need to have some pity for the schoolchildren from say 2100 onward and the sorts of questions they will be asked,

" Did the events of 2016 inevitably lead to the widespread reintroduction of protectionist policies and the subsequent trade wars? Discuss"

Awful re subject, awful re thought.

Alternatively, the UK can come to a free trade agreement with the EU. Like the US has.

Not so sure re the next four years, Trump does not strike me as an advocate of free trade (I think BMW may now agree with me re this point, the Chinese certainly do)

If the rhetoric is followed through (who knows with Trump) we may well be moving to an era of protectionist policies; frankly the UK/EU are also rans-watch China/USA developments and posturing, once it starts it spreads-like flu.

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Replying to DJKL:
RLI
By lionofludesch
18th Jan 2017 11:56

DJKL wrote:

Not so sure re the next four years, Trump does not strike me as an advocate of free trade (I think BMW may now agree with me re this point, the Chinese certainly do)

If the rhetoric is followed through (who knows with Trump) we may well be moving to an era of protectionist policies; frankly the UK/EU are also rans-watch China/USA developments and posturing, once it starts it spreads-like flu.

If folk want free trade to happen, it will do.

Because there's nothing to stop it happening.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
18th Jan 2017 12:09

History tends to suggest it starts to disappear once [***] for tat policies commence, the world landscape does look to be changing.

On the other hand frankly I doubt EU/UK negotiations are of that much import re the global direction of travel re tariffs, they are hardly dynamic economies that will be driving world growth over the next 20-30 years.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
18th Jan 2017 11:33

lionofludesch wrote:

DJKL wrote:

Well, having spent a fair bit of time in the 1970s, first at school and then at University, studying both History and Economic History, and remembering the joys of reading about tariff reforms as we trudged through the later 19th century/early twentieth century ,dry as dust, catalogue of never ending sheer tedium, it is really good to see that the Conservatives are following through with their rhetoric to reintroduce Victorian values; they obviously want to replay history.

I think we need to have some pity for the schoolchildren from say 2100 onward and the sorts of questions they will be asked,

" Did the events of 2016 inevitably lead to the widespread reintroduction of protectionist policies and the subsequent trade wars? Discuss"

Awful re subject, awful re thought.

Alternatively, the UK can come to a free trade agreement with the EU. Like the US has.

I thought Trump had vowed to walk away from the TPP.

Then again not sure what bits he has said that can be taken at face value.

Interesting that Putin has now backed up what the Beatles said in the 60s,

"And Moscow girls make me sing and shout"

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