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Property Capital Gains Tax -No Online Account

How do I submit a capital gains tax declaration for a client that can't get an online account?

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An elderly client needs to declare their property capital gains tax within 30 days. In order to authorise us as their agent on the capital gains tax portal, the client needs to create their own online service account.

Not only is the client unable to do this themselves, but they can't pass the online verification process. They don't have any valid forms of ID for the online process. 

What is the solution here? How do we manage to declare the CGT?

Replies (35)

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By Michael Beaver
22nd Feb 2021 13:46

Call HMRC and ask for a paper form to be sent. That's what I had to do for a client that just couldn't get their CGT on UK Property account to work, even after HMRC's 'technical help'.

Thanks (4)
By Paul D Utherone
22nd Feb 2021 14:01

From HMRC/Agent Forum:

CGT-6396 - Step by step process for digitally excluded customers to authorise an agent

Here are the bullet points to reflect the process where a digitally excluded customer wants to appoint an agent to act on their behalf:

- Agent is required to register with Agent Services unless they have an existing account

- Agent asks client to contact HMRC Taxes helpline on 0300 200 3300 to register for a CGT account

- HMRC Taxes helpline advisor will confirm that client is digitally excluded and refer customer to HMRC Extra Support Service

- HMRC Extra Support Service advisor will help the client register for a CGT account. This process will be done by phone or face to face, as appropriate

- The registration process will result in the client receiving a CGT account reference number. Reference number will be created in real-time

- Client gives the CGT account reference number to their agent to begin the agent-client authorisation process

- Agent logs into Agent Services and selects ‘Ask your client to authorise you’

- Agent enters the CGT account reference number of their client, creating an invitation link

- Client contacts HMRC Taxes helpline to request support to authorise their agent

- HMRC Extra Support Service advisor uses client’s CGT account reference number to identify agent-client authorisation request

- HMRC Extra Support Service advisor confirms client is happy for agent to act on their behalf

- HMRC Extra Support Service advisor creates agent-client relationship

- Agent is able engage digitally with HMRC on behalf of client for CGT property disposals

SEE ...it's simple according to HMRC - and barking mad for something with a 30 deadline according to EVERYONE trying to make this work i a pandemic when one cannot sit with the client (even if you could spare the time for a visit) to try to contact HMRC while sitting with the client - and what's the betting you wouldn't get some jobsworth who refused to speak and rang off because they could hear you in the background explaining to the client what they were being asked for & what to answer, as I did on one famous occasion when trying to sort something out for my aged mother

Thanks (17)
Replying to Paul D Utherone:
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By Southwestbeancounter
22nd Feb 2021 14:35

How ridiculous!

Thanks (4)
Replying to Paul D Utherone:
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By frankfx
22nd Feb 2021 16:44

Paul.
Brilliant contribution.
Thank you.

All Awebers should share this with local MP and Jim Harra.

Thanks (8)
Replying to Paul D Utherone:
By SteveHa
23rd Feb 2021 11:39

I read it twice, and I'm sure it still requires the digitally excluded client to not be digitally excluded.

Thanks (1)
Replying to SteveHa:
By Paul D Utherone
23rd Feb 2021 17:37

Do you mean:
- Agent enters the CGT account reference number of their client, creating an invitation link

I think it probably should then say
-Agent tells client that they have started the authorisation process from their end, and to ring the HMRC Helpline again

and then you can move on to
- Client contacts HMRC Taxes helpline to request support to authorise their agent

I had just copy/pasted the HMRC list from the thread, but still it is an utterly ridiculous process, all because (apparently) HMRC are worried about GDPR

Thanks (3)
Replying to Paul D Utherone:
Morph
By kevinringer
24th Feb 2021 13:46

GDPR can't be the reason HMRC have invented such a convoluted process because when we submit the 2021 Tax Return HMRC will accept that from us even if there is no agent authorisation in place. And the 2021 Tax Return includes the CGT. So why will HMRC accept the whole return from us but not just the CGT part? GDPR applies to the 2021 Tax Return just as much as the 30-day CGT declaration.

Thanks (2)
Replying to kevinringer:
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By lh3f9764bg1g
24th Feb 2021 14:55

I've always thought that this is a very weird anomaly . . . . . . but I didn't want to mention it as I didn't want to put ideas in their heads.

Thanks (1)
Replying to Paul D Utherone:
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By Tommy1982
22nd Mar 2021 09:43

Thank you for this.

This is completely mad and unworkable. Clients who are digitally excluded more often than not have other special requirements (the elderly, disabled etc.). This means that telephoning HMRC is not going to be an easy task, they are not going to be able to sit there for ages supplying personal data over the phone.

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By Justin Bryant
22nd Feb 2021 14:47

It's madder than Mad Jack McMad, the winner of last year's "Mr. Madman" competition.

Thanks (11)
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By fawltybasil2575
22nd Feb 2021 15:25

@ Lee11_1989 (OP).

There is no need for you or the client to be inconvenienced by the HMRC’s convoluted system. All that is required, in order to comply with the legislation, is the submission to HMRC of a LETTER, signed by the client. This should include:-

(i) Detailed workings (showing property address, dates of acquisition and disposal, cost and sale prices etc; and the resultant Chargeable Gain and CGT payable figures).

(ii) A declaration that, to the best of the client’s knowledge and belief, the Return is correct and complete.

(iii) A cheque for the CGT payable.

[Payment, if perchance the client does not have a cheque book, can be made instead by bank transfer].

The legislation requires the submission of a “return”. The letter referred to above represents a valid “return”.

There is in fact a PAPER FORM, which one may be able to obtain from HMRC, which is also a “return” for the purposes of the legislation, and if one is able to obtain such form easily from HMRC, by means of a quick phone call, then such paper form can be used instead of the letter.

Basil.

Thanks (4)
Replying to fawltybasil2575:
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By Paul Crowley
22nd Feb 2021 16:40

Just did the same today for a married couple, not letter but 4 page form

Boxes not numbered
Daft box on page 5 asking 'How much of your personal allowance do you want to be applied'

Thanks (3)
Replying to Paul Crowley:
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By Paul Crowley
25th Feb 2021 09:56

Enclosed a cheque for each payable HMRC with UTR on back

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By vinylnobbynobbs
22nd Feb 2021 16:24

At the moment it would appear that the service is down. Telephone the SA helpline and ask for a paper return. They will send one out for you to complete. (It will go to the client). We have submitted a few so far.

Thanks (0)
Replying to vinylnobbynobbs:
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By Paul Crowley
22nd Feb 2021 16:40

I asked for two
Married couple
Only one arrived

Scanned and kept for others

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Replying to Paul Crowley:
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By vinylnobbynobbs
23rd Feb 2021 11:06

We have an office copy too

Thanks (1)
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By Martin B
22nd Feb 2021 16:34

One big mess by HMRC. We spend more time with the admin and hurdles instead of actual work.

Thanks (7)
By Paul D Utherone
23rd Feb 2021 10:48

Plan B

Get completion to be on 31 March, and submit SA returns returning the gain to HMRC before 30 April. Based on the thread elsewhere and legislation as it stands that negates the need for a 30 day return, and payment, with payment then deferred to the following 31 Jan.

Admittedly that is a tight window, but nothing ventured.

There is a new thread gaining some traction on the HMRC/Agent Forum: CGT-"9808 - CGT 30-day reporting for the digitally excluded" and the Professional Bodies Issues Overview Group is asking to escalte the issue urgently.

Thanks (1)
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By vinylnobbynobbs
23rd Feb 2021 11:50

Our client still cannot get into her personal tax account. Email from HMRC Technical Services:

"Thank you for contacting the Digital Customer Support Team.

Could you please update the address held in your Personal Tax Account.
https://www.gov.uk/log-in-register-hmrc-online-services

Sign in and select ‘Your account’ at the top of the page, and then ‘Manage your personal details’. Then select ‘Change your main address’. When entering the address could you ensure that the postcode is entered in the postcode field, and not within a field above this one.

Once this has been completed and saved, please allow 24 hours and then sign into the Report and Pay Capital Gains Tax on UK property service. You should then be able to subscribe to the service and create an account, following which you will be able to file a return.

If you encounter a problem when trying to correct the details please contact the Income Tax helpline, link below. "

Er.... She cannot get into her account?

(Her self assessment account shows the correct address)

Thanks (3)
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By andrew59
24th Feb 2021 10:01

Obtaining the paper form was not the problem. HMRC sent this out following telephone call.

The problem is that the form was sent in on 9.12.20 but has still not been processed. This is despite a follow up telephone call to HMRC on 22.1.21 when they confirmed they had received the form (I knew this anyway because the letter was sent recorded delivery) but was told it was unlikely to be dealt with before March!

I would also add that the form specifically states 'please do not make payment until you've received confirmation'.

Thanks (3)
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By lh3f9764bg1g
24th Feb 2021 10:45

I have a PDF copy of the manual form too (which I have used twice) but I'm worried that it will change after 6th April and I won't (a) know that it has changed and (b) be able to get a copy of the new form (should there be one).
It's a total horlicks.

Thanks (3)
Morph
By kevinringer
24th Feb 2021 12:59

I've had four of these in the last week! When you phone the ADL they can't issue the form and instead put you through to a technician. Average queue time 40 minutes just to speak to the ADL and add another 10 by the time you've spoken to the technician. That's 50 minutes + 2x HMRC staff just to get the form! Bureaucracy is alive and well at HMRC.

Thanks (2)
Replying to kevinringer:
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By lh3f9764bg1g
24th Feb 2021 14:09

Jobs for the boys! And girls . . . . . of course . . . . . and . . . . . . . . .

Thanks (1)
Morph
By kevinringer
24th Feb 2021 13:01

HMRC told me last week there was a 10-week backlog processing the paper forms but that has now increased to 19 weeks. That means if you submit now you may well end up submitting the 2021 Tax Return before the paper form is processed.

Thanks (3)
Morph
By kevinringer
24th Feb 2021 13:02

When using the paper form, you don't pay the CGT until HMRC send the bill. It is currently taking 19 weeks to process the paper form so the 30-day CGT becomes 130-day for payment.

Thanks (3)
Replying to kevinringer:
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By lh3f9764bg1g
24th Feb 2021 14:08

I couldn't understand the reasoning here either . . . . . the form says "Please do not make payment until you’ve received confirmation". Why?

Thanks (1)
Morph
By kevinringer
24th Feb 2021 13:04

The paper form says:

'Supporting evidence
Remember to provide evidence that will support your return. For example, spreadsheets with calculations ...'

This is a form for the digitally excluded. How are the digitally excluded expected to produce spreadsheets? And why spreadsheets? Surely HMRC should only require accurate calculations. As we all know, a spreadsheet calculation is not the same as an accurate calculation.

Thanks (4)
Replying to kevinringer:
By SteveHa
24th Feb 2021 16:14

And since when was a spreadsheet "evidence"? Do HMRC not know how you can literally punch whatever numbers you want on a spreadsheet and it will accept them?

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Replying to SteveHa:
Morph
By kevinringer
24th Feb 2021 17:12

SteveHa wrote:

And since when was a spreadsheet "evidence"? Do HMRC not know how you can literally punch whatever numbers you want on a spreadsheet and it will accept them?

What are you talking about? Spreadsheets are 100% accurate. Why else would HMRC allow them for MTD? They're from a computer don't you know, so they'll be right. ;-)
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By North East Accountant
24th Feb 2021 17:45

Paper form works a treat....... once you get one copy it, black out the name, barcode etc on it, copy it again and hey presto you have your own blank template to use for every return.

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Replying to North East Accountant:
Morph
By kevinringer
24th Feb 2021 18:59

Has anyone used a photocopied form for a client for whom they didn't order it? Did HMRC accept it?

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Replying to kevinringer:
n/a
By Trish Baillie
25th Feb 2021 08:45

I have a photocopied form that I have used for several people - no rejections so far.

Thanks (1)
Replying to Trish Baillie:
Morph
By kevinringer
25th Feb 2021 11:41

Thanks Trish, I'm going to do this in future.

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By vinylnobbynobbs
25th Feb 2021 11:57

Now here is thought. Return submitted and payment made. Tax return is then submitted and processed. How will HMRC match up CGT payment with SA payment? Separate systems? Client makes payment less already paid - Debt Management send in the heavies for the balance.

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Jane
By Jane Evans
25th Feb 2021 12:07

Beware that even if you manage to file the CGT return within the 30 days, and use the correct reference number for making the payment HMRC can still lose the money. I have a case where we and the client have done everything right. HMRC has not recorded the payment onto the account. This was in November and I have been chasing since early December. Agent Account Maintainer has been chasing internally since mid January and no success.

Collector of Taxes has been efficient over the years in allocating SA money to the clients' SA accounts. I wonder if they are not in charge of allocating the money within the RTI system.

When we file SATR the CGT money does not appear on the SA account. Instead there is a separate box on the CGT pages (box 12 on page CG1) for money paid via RTI. What's the betting that when we file the 2020/21 SATR we find that HMRC does not provide a credit for the RTI money?

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