Real Time Capital Gains Submission

Trying to file online using a client's Gateway ID and password

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I'm trying to submit a real time Capital Gains Tax return for a client. Rather than go through the process of obtaining an agent authorisation (I am an agent for their Self Assessment tax returns), I was hoping to file the CGT submision using their own personal Gateway ID and password.

However, when I try to do this, it takes me to pages that refer to estates and trusts - not pages for an individual.

What am I doing wrong?

I have truied entering teh details on both my office computer and using the client's own computer - with the same result each time.

Replies (33)

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By Wanderer
08th Jun 2020 12:18

Are you going through the link on this page:-
https://www.gov.uk/capital-gains-tax/report-and-pay-capital-gains-tax

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By Eric T
08th Jun 2020 12:29

I am. And when I enter the client's Gateway No. and ID I get taken to a page that says this message -

We need more details
This is so you can:

Create a Capital Gains Tax on UK property account for your trust or estate.
Report your CGT on UK property sales or disposals for a trust or estate.

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By Paul D Utherone
08th Jun 2020 14:20

What you are doing wrong is trying to do it through their personal account...a no-no in HMRC eyes (and most here) though the hoops you have to jump through to get authorised for CGT real time returns are ridiculous

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By Eric T
08th Jun 2020 14:35

But surely the client can do it through their own personal tax account, on their own computer using their own personal Gateway ID?

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Replying to Eric T:
By Paul D Utherone
08th Jun 2020 16:38

The client can, yes. The point is that you cannot pretend to be the client, login to their account, and submit for them.

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Replying to Eric T:
Psycho
By Wilson Philips
08th Jun 2020 16:41

Yes

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By Eric T
08th Jun 2020 16:45

I wasn't trying to "pretend" I was the client. I was getting the client, under my guidance, to make the entries, on their computer,. at their premises and using their IP. Why, in those circumstances would I get this incorrect direction?

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By Cheshire
08th Jun 2020 17:05

Not tried it, but there was a post on here recently about this from agent perspective, but had some extra info in it (I didnt read it either, but parked it for a rainy day)

HTH
https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/any-answers/capital-gains-tax-report-and...

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By Eric T
08th Jun 2020 17:13

Thanks to the replies so far - although the mystery as to why I am getting directed to the "Trusts and Estates" page has not been solved yet.

I have sent a query to HMRC to see if they can explain it but had no reply yet.

I did speak to an HMRC official this morning but he could not explain it either.

This is all rather disconcerting when you consider that this system operates on such a tight time schedule.

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Scooby
By gainsborough
08th Jun 2020 18:31

Is it possible that your client enrolled for a specific Trusts service when they first created their Government Gateway account?

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By Eric T
09th Jun 2020 07:54

That is an interesting point and could very well be the issue. However, I doubt if the client will remember what they did exactly at the time they were setting up their Gateways (there are two people involved, a husband and wife).

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Scooby
By gainsborough
09th Jun 2020 10:06

True - but they might remember if they have ever filed a Trust or Estate return themselves in the past and that would be an indication that this might be the issue. It may then be quicker for them to set up a new gateway ID rather than waiting for an HMRC response.

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By Eric T
09th Jun 2020 11:08

That is definitely not the issue. They obtained these Gateway's ID early in May purely to be able to file the CGT details.

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Scooby
By gainsborough
09th Jun 2020 12:54

Hmmm....then I'm stumped.

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By Eric T
09th Jun 2020 13:11

Thanks for your suggestions anyway. They've all been useful to help focus my mind on what the problem might be. I spoke to an HMRC official on the phone yesterday and he was stumped too. So, this seems to be an unusual situation. However, what is profoundly unsatisfactory is the fact that the time limit for filing and paying the tax is unrealistically short. Yes, I know the filing deadline has been extended until 31 July and no penalties will be charged if filed before that date but interest will be charged from 24 May, which should have been the pay and file deadline.
I have sent a query to HMRC and they have promised a reply within 2 days.

Another question, the calculation of the CGT on this disposal under this 30 days system will be incorrect as it does not take into account the true liability arising due to the fact that it ignores completely the other income of both taxpayers that they WILL receive in tax year 2020/21. This means HMRC will receive the wrong tax amount and the matter will not be resolved until the 2020/21 self assessment tax returns are submitted - which will be 12 months from now at the earliest.

That sounds extremely unfair.

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Replying to Eric T:
Psycho
By Wilson Philips
09th Jun 2020 13:21

I assume that you mean that your clients will be paying less tax now than is actually due, and won't have to make up the difference until 31 January 2022? And that is unfair how?

In any event, you are allowed to estimate other income for the year, so you should be able to make a reasonable stab at the amount of CGT payable.

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Replying to Eric T:
By SteveHa
09th Jun 2020 13:25

Re para 1. Advise your client to make payment regardless of the liability not having been established.

re para 2. A long acknowledged flaw in the system.

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Replying to SteveHa:
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By Eric T
09th Jun 2020 13:47

That sounds like good advice, except that the HMRC website on filing the CGT details electronically categorically states that you should not make any payments until after submission of the CGT details and liability and they have issued a payment reference.

If a payment is made now "on spec", what will HMRC do with the money received?

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Replying to Eric T:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
10th Jun 2020 12:54

lose it.

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Replying to Eric T:
Julian Cohen
By bigugly
10th Jun 2020 12:58

I don't care about HMRC's problems, if they are charging interest on money properly due to them. If they were prepared to give a binding undertaking that nothing would be charged until they had given me a figure, all well and good. Otherwise I'd pay them the money I thought was due and let them deal with it! They'll be having many more disgruntled "customers" like me over a period of time.

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Replying to Eric T:
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By Ashford
10th Jun 2020 19:14

My understanding is that although HMRC are pushing everyone to file the capital gains etc on-line, there is a paper form which the tax payer has to request, you can fill it out, and then they sign it and send it in. As you are worried about the tight timescales, this might be worth pursuing this time around. Must stress it is the tax payer that has to request the form to be sent out not you as their agent. I got this info when speaking to one of the HMRC 'technicians' and I did evenutally spot it on one of the HMRC website pages.

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Replying to Ashford:
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By Justin Bryant
11th Jun 2020 09:18

Ashford, could you (or anyone else) kindly provide HMRC's website link to the paper return option?

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Replying to Justin Bryant:
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By Ashford
11th Jun 2020 17:10

I spoke to a technician at the end of April and explained that I filed tax returns for people but wasn't always their tax agent. One of my clients for whom I am not an agent was thinking of selling one of his BTL properties so I asked the technician how I could assist my client with the real time submission form etc. As the client has no inclination to set up an on-line HMRC account, the technician said that the client could phone in and request a paper form. As yet I haven't had to see if this actually works.
I see from the HMRC website (https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/capital-gains-tax-uk-property/start/repor...) that you can request paper forms if you are acting as a 'capicitor' or 'personal representative', so paper forms exist and I assume this is what the technician was referring to. I hope this helps...

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By Eric T
09th Jun 2020 13:29

Any tax system that encourages people to make submissions based on a "reasonable stab" at calculating liabilities needs a bit of a rethink, I would suggest.

I have never felt that guessing somebody's tax liability was very professional - especially when that "guess" was the basis of a formal submission.

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By Ebutler
10th Jun 2020 11:49

Having exactly same problem this week

Eric T wrote:

I'm trying to submit a real time Capital Gains Tax return for a client. Rather than go through the process of obtaining an agent authorisation (I am an agent for their Self Assessment tax returns), I was hoping to file the CGT submision using their own personal Gateway ID and password.

However, when I try to do this, it takes me to pages that refer to estates and trusts - not pages for an individual.

What am I doing wrong?

I have truied entering teh details on both my office computer and using the client's own computer - with the same result each time.

Thanks (0)
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By Paul Deehan
10th Jun 2020 12:43

I had a similar issue with this trying to help out my Father with his return. Trying to add the CGT service to his personal gateway account said that he needed an organisational account. Set one of those up and tried again only to be presented with the estates or trusts option.

Finally found the link below which allowed him to sign in using his original personal gateway account and start the process.

https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/capital-gains-tax-uk-property/account-home

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By Eric T
10th Jun 2020 15:28

HMRC and people here seem to be saying you are supposed to obtain a specific Capital Gains Tax submission Gateway ID and that you CANNOT make use of any previous Gateway IDs you may have obtained in the past - such as to complete a self assessment tax return.

Who is right here?

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Scooby
By gainsborough
10th Jun 2020 15:41

Eric, if Paul's link above works, then hopefully you can use the original ID?

This whole process does make my blood boil - especially when you read the original policy objective was to "reduce error and increase compliance" but, in reality what we end up with is a nightmare process to sign up, estimates instead of actual figures - especially where sale takes place early in a tax year - and a rushed calculation (how many clients will have costs and dates of occupancy ready and available immediately after sale)?

I'd like to know just how hard the professional bodies fought against this.

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Replying to gainsborough:
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By Eric T
10th Jun 2020 16:27

I concur completely with that.

I often wonder what influence the professional bodies have on government tax policy. None, it looks like.

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Replying to gainsborough:
Psycho
By Wilson Philips
10th Jun 2020 19:32

gainsborough wrote:
(how many clients will have costs and dates of occupancy ready and available immediately after sale)?

How many clients will decide to sell their property and complete the following day?
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Replying to Wilson Philips:
Scooby
By gainsborough
11th Jun 2020 08:29

Not many, but despite lots of notice, I suspect a fair few will not tell agents until after the sale has taken place.

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Replying to gainsborough:
Psycho
By Wilson Philips
11th Jun 2020 08:40

Well, if a client cannot be bothered to advise his agent that he is selling, or planning to sell, his property they’d get little sympathy from me.

In that context the 30-day limit is a bit of a red herring. Those same clients are likely to be the ones that hand in their records on 30 January, telling you only then that they’ve disposed of the property.

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By Eric T
11th Jun 2020 18:24

Problem sorted and both submissions made.

The problem did seem to be around the fact that, for some completely unknown reason, when my two clients originally applied for a Gateway ID each to complete the Capital Gains Tax return they inadvertently signed on, for both of them, as "Organisations" rather than an "Individuals".

Now, my clients aren't stupid people but they were directed to a specific part of the signing on process by a link sent to them by somebody from HMRC (they had phoned for help). I suspect that the link they were given went straight to the "Organisation" part of the signing on process rather than the "Individual" section.

By starting from scratch today and getting new individual IDs for both clients, we were able to process the return.

Interestingly, you end up, more or less, completing what amounts to an estimates Self Assessment tax return in advance as they ask you to also include what you THINK your other income MIGHT be for the rest of the current tax year.

Trying to shoe-horn real time tax calculations onto a system that can only really calculate tax correctly once a tax year has ended creates all sorts of messy situations.

Thanks to all who provided suggestions and help. It helped me focus on where the issues might be.

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