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Reproduced - "Accountancy bodies go for 'strategic consolidation'"

Reproduced - "Accountancy bodies go for ...


Title: Accountancy bodies go for 'strategic consolidation'
Date: 14th September 2004

Keen not to lose momentum in their announced merger talks, the ICAEW, CIMA and CIPFA today announced plans for what they call "strategic consolidation". The brief announcement gives a slightly clearer idea of their objective.

With 200,000 members and a significant student base worldwide the new body would, they claim, "unify the business, practice and public sectors and quickly become the authoritative voice across the accountancy profession."

The respective governing councils hightlighted the opportunity to create a powerful body with increased influence across industry and government - and to "ensure the long term future of the profession for the next generation of chartered accountants." These few carefully chosen words will suggest to many that 'takeover' might be a better description than merger.

The joint announcement claimed that the size, scope and resources of the new body would increase the level of assistance available to members "throughout the lifecycle of their careers". In other words, in the professional world, size does matter - or is this just safety in numbers?

The proposals will ensure that existing members of all three bodies will be entitled to keep their current designatory letters and titles. Individual routes to qualification will be preserved during the post-consolidation transition.

This is perhaps the most controversial aspect of the proposals, and one which many, in particular Jeff Wooller's Ginger Group, will wish to examine in detail to ensure that entry standards to the combined professional body are not lowered.

Any future changes to these qualifications would have to maintain the same high standards of entry and would be subject to a three-quarter majority of the governing council of the new body.

The timetable for these plans is surprisingly short. Strategic consolidation has so far received an in principle yes from each of the governing councils of the three institutes. Formal proposals will be put to councils in December 2004 with resolutions expected to be put to the
members of all three bodies early to mid 2005. Subject to a positive mandate, permission will then be sought for a new Royal Charter.

Over the next few months the institutes will be rolling out an extensive nationwide campaign to present the findings of their strategic reviews, present the benefits of consolidation as a potential fast track towards common goals - and to persuade members to vote in favour of a
consolidation. Given the apathy shown towards CPE and Practice Assurance they will have to surpass themselves in communicating with members to meet the proposed deadline.

Source: AccountingWEB



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11th Apr 2005 09:50

I'm really looking forward to merging with CIPFA. Working flexitime will be great, and I'll be able to wear my nice, comfortable suede shoes to the office. Of course it will be frustrating when my salary review puts me up by EXACTLY £141.27 but the spare-time job will make up for that. And I can take sick leave whenever I want!

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19th Apr 2005 09:01

Professional Institutes' CEOs
When proposals get dying, they come out and hooh hoooooo hahahahahhaha to hoooked you fellas into the impossible almighty dream built in thin air castles, only to be concluded by the gust of wind blowing it away. Like the song ".....the answer is blowing in the wind".(Song title is Blowing in Wind) Understand.

Don't dream further, the merger is not gona work out. It will be concluded by the slow small gust of air or wind - the decider.

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By Anonymous
22nd Mar 2005 11:58

That's why I'm suggesting it.It sure would be better then just following the ratio of accountants to population wouldn't it?

Maybe the professor can suggest something better since he has experience in doing research or is he likely to take the easy way out and simply accept what is suggested?

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By Anonymous
16th Mar 2005 13:48

Since when this happen?.

As far as I know this site, members are quite professional. The only individuals who impersonate are those who find themselves lacking in the ability to put forward a point.

I'm sure PL is not Matthew and Matthew is not PL.

We are two different individuals.

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18th Mar 2005 04:44

Try making sense, Matthew
You wrote "Didn't you heard (hear) Donald Trump say how many applied for the post of ONE Apprentice?

#The scope for the game show is not degree specific.By the way that was a bad example to use here because it falls into my point- too many applicants and too few jobs."

If (I said, if) Donald Trump advertised for the post of CFO for his Trump Empire, 1,000,000 applications came, does this mean there exist a need of 1,000,000 accountants in USA? Next, if IBM Bocaraton offers a position of Financial Director, and 1,000,000 applications came in, does this mean there is another need for 1,000,000 accountants in the USA? And again, if Microsoft offers a CFO post, and 1,000,000 applications, and ABC Big Corp offers a CFO post and BCD Big Corp offered a CFO post, and CDE Big Corp offers a CFO post ... and so on, and each has 1,000,000 applications, this means to say that USA need 1,000,000 x 1000 companies offering CFO or similar posts, ie USA need 1,000,000,000 accountants. What's the population of USA then?

On the other hand, you said the corporate greats don't offer top management post in the papers and they go through headhunters, then if a top accounting post exist, and headhunter only fielded 5 prospective applicants, does this mean there is only a need for 5 accountants?

Let's draw a logic line, which I know is invisible and you need to do that for a start to be practical and not be so confusing to others reading your posts.

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By Anonymous
15th Mar 2005 05:01

Just too many.
PL the projected figure of 60,000 accountants needs to be revised downwards.There really are too many accountants.

The MIA figure of the current 22,000 odd members fail to take account of those who have deregistered and still practising as company accountants.It all fails to take into account members of professional bodies who never registered at all.

Also I wish to point out I do not consider individuals who never completed their accountancy studies to be accountants.

Also please let us know regarding the accountant figures in Ireland and it's population.I would also like to know its complexity in taxation and financial reporting requirements.You have to take all these into account before a comparison can be done.

I think a more accurate assessment of the accountancy market is obtained through job recruitment agencies and not government figures.These agencies are telling me the market is overcrowded. Too many applicants and too few positions.( to a certain extent you can also tell by the number of applications sent in directly to companies).

Besides this we must also take into account how dynamic the business enviroment is.Not to mention the increasing use of longer requires so many people. I would say it's wrong to extrapolate based on population.

You can do an investigation yourself!

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By Anonymous
14th Mar 2005 13:14

To me AIA is not a serious accounting body. A body that poached a junior body like IFA, mergered with IcomA just tells me they cannot attract quality members or students.

Why they are posting in this section, I dont know. May be they are trying to promote. But I am totally fed up with the BS that has been flying around on this board. Enough is enough!!!

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22nd Mar 2005 07:19

Any countries following your advice, Matthew?
Please do let me know. I am interested, please.

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12th Mar 2005 08:42

AIA is now an awakening itself
Matthew, many people were like you before. Criticise and condemning AIA until now it began to wake up and called professor to joint venture with university for internal audit project research. Isn't that nice to hear what is positively happening?

Any professional body is also like that. When established, they seek ways eagerly to promote their body. When got chance to get DTI recognised, they go for it. When got it, they should promote themselves, not sit in their cosy hibernator nest all the time. Too much cosy hibernating, that when people throw strong words to them and they still sit there, people put tear gas to gassed them up.

After that they get too much gassed eyes, they have to wake up and clear their wet eyes. Next, they found out their mid-summer night dream is a bad dream to reality world. So, they hold a last supper dinner to enjoy their hibernation and finally called an enlightener professor to show them the way to a university project research and respond to so many professors in this website threads.

This is also how others bodies climbs up to success, only thing that those who enjoy cosy hibernation take much more time to wake up because they are still enjoying their mid-summer night dream in another realm. Too bad. But at least, Matthew, things are beginning to be on the right track. Maybe, ICAEW will help AIA.

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14th Mar 2005 03:21

Every cloud has its silver linings
Matthew, if AIA has changed for the better, let this be remembered and hope for a better AIA tomorrow.

ACCA was not well recognised world-wide many many years back. ACCA is now a big fish already, like ICAEW.

Just like a graduate in accounting. He is just a Mr Green; he needs time to build up his practicals, and later excel like others.

I believe in giving Mr Greens a chance, not kill him off and his rice bowl. That is very saddistic to do.

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By Anonymous
14th Mar 2005 05:03

Enough already with this AIA press releases go start your own thread.

Self promotion this way will always backfire.

Anyway as I said many times any student especially those who care what professional qualification they are getting in accounting will always enrol with first tier bodies.Student enrolment numbers say it all.

Give a chance ......please be logical. Individuals select a qualification or go to Ivy league universities so they can join reputable companies and earn more. Asking individuals to forgo this opportunity is a SELFISH reason,somehow I think the Professor is somewhat tied financially to AIA. Nobody in the right mind will do so much to help some entity if he's not.

If I am a student councellor I will always recommend the BEST choices today as not to TOY with their future. There are already too many professionally qualified accountants. Getting the right doors to open without the right qualifications is getting extremely difficult.(not to mention the kind of working experiences gain by joining the right firms).

Somehow I see that you(Prof)have miss all these points by NOT thinking from the point of the qualification holder.

I could probably debate this with the professor the whole day.

He's also free to put up his AIA comments but please do it in another thread so all those who are interested with AIA will click on and read.

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12th Mar 2005 03:32

AIA's wake-up call
Hi everybody, hear me professor say something - finally AIA wake up to other professors' call in the threads requesting them to be more original and up-todate in their AIA eNews which publishes stale news or from other websites, not AIA's original.

AIA is reading this website threads after all.

Though SLOW STARTER, AIA finally did this good thing for a start :


NEWS: 11 March 2005


The AIA has been approach by Clark University, Worcester, MA, USA to become involved in a research project concerning the skills and attributes of internal auditors.

Clark University is a small, private, very respectable, highly competitive university, established in 1887. One of your Council members, Dr. Frank Lefley, PhD MPhil MSc DMS FAIA FCIS FRSA, of Royal Holloway, University of London, will act on behalf of the AIA in this study.

The AIA is keen to be involved in such research projects in order to increase its profile within the academic community – but we can only do this with your help.

If you have internal audit experience and are prepared to complete a short questionnaire, the AIA would like to hear from you, please contact [email protected]


Let's HOPE more to come from AIA.

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By Anonymous
12th Mar 2005 06:38

AIA news not interested!.
I do not know why some people keeps on posting AIA news in non AIA threads.

Most of us are really not interested in such postings,I no longer read any AIA threads and any postings regarding AIA do not stir any interest either.It's still a second tier accounting body at best.

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By Anonymous
10th Mar 2005 12:44

AIA member?
Why are U posting your question here when there's a specific thread concerning your question?.

Too much time ..go sell some insurance.

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By Anonymous
16th Mar 2005 14:33

Re : PL
A body whose population size got inflated by the existence of PHANTOM Members?

#Are you working by the way?
Don't you know that certain individuals sign up with MIA a couple of years just to get a membership number and discontinue paying fees.It should even be bigger if you take into account members of prof bodies that never registered.

I realy don't know the population of Ireland to accountants in response to your question

#Don't quote if you can't verify the figures or the economic situation there.

Matthew, you must be out of your mind to say "I think a more accurate assessment of the accountancy market is obtained through job recruitment agencies and not government figures."

#Like you said the govt publish those figures years ago.Where is the update? Job agencies deal with applicants everyday. Who gives a better assessment?By the way who else here thinks that this particular govt figure is reliable?You forgot to mention my other points.( the use of IT and how dynamic the business enviroment is).

Didn't you heard (hear) Donald Trump say how many applied for the post of ONE Apprentice?

#The scope for the game show is not degree specific.By the way that was a bad example to use here because it falls into my point- too many applicants and too few jobs.(That's exactly why they are on the Apprentice they are looking for a chance to work with Mr.Trump)

If the CFO of IBM were to retire, guess how many would apply for this job. How about the CFO position of conglomerates like Genting, Tyco, Barings ING, AIA (insurance).....

#Unfortunately the CFO position of IBM,ING,TYCO,AIA or even AIG is not an open application. Such companies will headhunt for such a position. Don't you know that?

So, the number of applicants reflects more realistically the number of qualified accountants a country should have?

#The number of applicants for any single accountany job reflects the competition one has to go through to get the one job.It also reflects there are many qualified people for the same job.Tell tale signs of trouble is when qualified accountants applies for an accounts executive post.Also the long waiting list that candidate is put into.
Would you not consider this if you are planning a career?Too much supply and too little demand will only drive down the pay.
Also haven't you come across families where at least one individual if not the entire are accountants?.I certainly have.

If this is case, the number of accountants applying for accountant posts far more exceed the 22,000 figure obviously.
# I do not understand the above please elaborate.

Right now in Malaysia alone, I bet you, there are many UNQUALIFIED ACCOUNTANTS by your definition. Isn't it is a case of TOO MANY UNQUALIFIED ACCOUNTANTS.

#My defination of unqualified are those who currently are finalist,have not completed their degrees and those not recognised by relevent authorities( same as anywhere).

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By Anonymous
09th Mar 2005 14:29

Any reason?
Why do you find that there is still any interest of this old issue?.

As it CIMA ( seen as the hottest date)has already put a firm stand on where it thinks management accounting should be.Does anyone seriously think the biggest snob is going to give in to CIMA and give it equal status in the new merger?.Any CIMA member with any self respect will be against the merger.It is only the misinformed CIMA student or it's CIMA ceo intends to see this merger through.

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10th Mar 2005 10:31

If there are so many professionals, then please comment on this
MESSAGE here is "If AIA continued to absorb the lesser qualifieds, then the AIA council will be taken over by lesser qualifieds, eg ICEA, IFA members". If so, good luck then AIA, let's see how you going to fulfil your DTI recognised role then with IFA members running your council.

AIA Member , 10-Mar-2005
Merger with IFA?
Can also merge, why not?
Providing IFA merge with ICAEW first and called themselves Institute of Chartered Financial Accountants in England and Wales (ICFAEW) and then AIA can invite ICFAEW to merger talks.

Albarto Carlos , 28-Jan-2005
My predictions to come
I can't foresee the Royal Charter yet at this moment. But I have already long predicted the council of AIA being taken over by lesser qualifieds. This seems to be clearer now as to who they are - the IFA members.

Prof TOTs (Sr) , 12-Jan-2005
Albarto Carlos
Just who he is, a predictor of mergers to come, a seer, a psychic, a great man, a "non"Albarto Carlos??, an AIA official definitely not???
Albarto sure guessed it right two years ago that a Merger between IFA and AIA would take place.
It did, but merger discussion broke off, AIA resorted to absrobing IFA members for direct admission into AIA.
What does Albarto Carlos predict of the outcome of AIA after absorbing so many IFA members in UK? AIA become Royal Chartered? AIA council become taken over by IFA members? Spells the end of the AIA long time council?
ALbarto Carlos, please predict in advance for us to know.

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By Anonymous
12th Mar 2005 09:23

Again ?
Why is this a significant move and why is this important and posted in this thread.Out of fear that none will read the AIA threads?

Second issue I have with this article is it doesn't really tell whether the good professor from the US approached other UK accounting bodies and perhaps only AIA responded to him.Maybe because issues of internal audit have been studied many times.Something for all of us to think about.

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12th Mar 2005 08:45

Bosan from the dictionary mean BORING
You aren't bad, Mr Tonie Bosan. Not that boring but factual. Good work done.

You shall be honoured highly.

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By Anonymous
18th Mar 2005 12:05

If there were two million accountants applying for the post of IBM and Apprentice there will only be two new vacancies open at the two accountants office.( because they would be employed by Donald and IBM).The rest although disatisfied with their present job will have to stay put.

So in order to satisfy their demand for jobs lets take a simplistic view and say they get jobs at each others companies a job swap.

Then comes the question where do new graduates go?.Also let us bring the rest of the accountants who are now disatisfied with their jobs.So where does everyone go?.Another round of job swaping?. That does not take care of the new graduates who multiply everyear does it?That's why I said using job agency figures make sense because in any economy graduates emerge faster then jobs needed to sustain them.It is a better yardstck then simply using accountants to a population.

I would also suggest that govt use accountants to companies as a ratio to get a better figure.

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10th Mar 2005 03:42

My master piece posting that cannot be left without in this thre
"From: Professor Ami Gosh
Date: 8th March 2005
Title: GBP 500 is OK for direct membership of ICAEW

That figure is fine to me. I am more generous, let's put it at GBP

Let's insinuate the situation, which shall turn real if ICAEW were to
decide in favour of opening its door to direct membership without

I expect the following number to join ICAEW via the DM route :

1) AIA - 4,500 members
2) MICPA - 2,000 members
3) MIA (please exclude those degree holders admitted direct to MIA) -
13,000 members
4) ICPAS - 8,000 members
5) AICPA - 80,000 members
6) CICPA - 280,000 members
7) ICPAI - 2,400 members
8) IIPA - admit only those with proper qualifications
9) ACCA - 100,000 members

Summing up, we shall have at least 489,900 members joining ICAEW if
ICAEW were to open its doors for direct admission. Adding to its current
list of members admitted by examinations, we can see ICAEW as a 619,900
member strong professional organisation.

After this mass, massive admission of members via DM, ICAEW should then
close its doors for the time being, focussed on consolidating its high
quality standards and practices and maintain its high valued status.

Next, ICAEW can forget about the GBP 18 mil deficit, as 489,900 x GBP
501.99 = GBP 245,924,901 shall be received from the DM membership
category, making ICAEW a GBP 293,183,601 cash rich professional
accountancy organisation and also the largest in the world too.

Then, ICAEW Research & Development can concentrate further in developing
best audit and accounting practices worldwide with its large exceesive
reserves it can afford.

Of course, don't forget to hire Professor Ami Gosh because of my
excellent idea. Not forgetting Wally N too, who kicked off the idea of
how to offset the GBP 18 mil deficit."

I admit to Dr Jeff's claims that I should include IFA and ICEA also, which I apologise for having left out inadvertently.

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10th Mar 2005 03:37

I am to be importantly mentioned too, my friends
I fit in professional into the circles of real professionals and academics. I must be mention, without which the entire Accountingweb is INCOMPLETE without ME.

In deep respect for Jeff Wooler's posting, I append below for the knowledge of all :

"From: jeff wooller
Date: 8th March 2005
Title: Response to Professor Gosh

You have omitted to include the IFA and the ACEA from England!

Did you know that Bruce Lawson, ex international rugby player, is
considering setting up a break-way group from the ICAEW. This would be
initially for Welsh members dissatisfied with the ICAEW which is a
significant number.

I think that I would join too as we do not get good value from ICAEW.".


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By simon68
16th Mar 2005 13:20

P L = Matthew (because of impersonate) but Matthew not = P L
Isn't it true?

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