SA Tax liability utility for 2017

Can anyone recommend any good utilities to calculate SA liabilties for 2017?

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Hi All

Can anyone recommend a utility for calculating self assessment tax liabilities for the 16/17 tax year? The utility should include entering figures such as self employed profits, Property rental profits, employment income, dividends, interest, etc.

We are happy to pay for the utility as well. You can send me the details by either private messaging me or replying to this post.

Thank you in advance.

Replies (28)

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By SteveHa
08th Dec 2016 16:52

Out of curiosity, are you an accountant or tax advisor? I find a piece of paper and a calculator are mostly all I need.

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By Tim Vane
08th Dec 2016 17:07

Surely your tax software will already do this for you?

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By stratty
08th Dec 2016 17:10

I find excel pretty hand for this.

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By SteveHa
08th Dec 2016 22:19

With the greatest respect to both Tim and Stratty, a question of how to do a quick tax calc needs neither dedicated software, or even a spreadsheet.

The OP question sounds like a "How do I calculate tax" question, in which case, this is the wrong place to ask. We expect people here to understand the fundamentals. How hard is it to subtract A from B and multiply by C to get D?

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Replying to SteveHa:
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By pacta
10th Dec 2016 09:02

Hold on. My calculator doesn't have A, B, C or D. Where can I find them?

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Replying to pacta:
RLI
By lionofludesch
10th Dec 2016 09:18

On the fag packet. If you choose the right brand.

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By Matrix
09th Dec 2016 07:48

I have used my software to produce 2017 draft returns already since some of my clients wanted to reduce POA and I needed to estimate 2016-17 liability first.

SteLacca - I think you need either software or excel to do this since it is not simple with the new dividend tax and I would hate to advise the reduced payment on account just by estimating on a calculator. Also using software saves time and I had not built in time/fees for estimating this year's tax alongside preparing last year's tax return. The figures for last year are readily available and I have an audit trail should the POA prove to be vastly wrong. I find bespoke calculations in excel take ages especially for those just into the different bands or income of £100-£120k (although I did this before the software had the 2017 calcs).

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By emanresu
09th Dec 2016 14:49

I'm with Steve on this. Providing the "etc." in the original is relatively limited, an accurate figure for 2016/17 takes about as long to work out on paper as the time taken to read this thread!

By the way, as of 7th December 2016, the HMRC position is that the "The 2016/17 [SA technical] specifications are currently being worked on". So it'll be a while before anyone knows how HMRC means to process SA returns for 2016/17.

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Replying to emanresu:
By Tim Vane
09th Dec 2016 23:31

emanresu wrote:
"The 2016/17 [SA technical] specifications are currently being worked on". So it'll be a while before anyone knows how HMRC means to process SA returns for 2016/17.

The software houses have had the specifications and draft forms for several months and most commercial software had provision for 2017 calculations even before that. The calculations are rooted in legislation and no number of HMRC "technical specifications" or "process" can alter the correct quantum of the tax payable.

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By emanresu
10th Dec 2016 16:19

Tim, and Lion

I don't want to be part of another "what is truth" discussion, but I see it as important to have HMRC's operational interpretation of the legislation as a way of deciding whether to challenge it as wrong, or acquiesce in an unexpected but valid interpretation of the legislation.

My quote is directly from HMRC's Software Developer Support Team, by the way, Tim. So any tech specifications released several months ago won't have come from them.

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Replying to emanresu:
RLI
By lionofludesch
10th Dec 2016 10:22

I believe Tim was making the same point as me. The 2016/17 tax rules were largely laid down at the end of 2015 and refined in the Budget of Spring 2016. they are what determines the liability.

Tax returns for the year can't be submitted until after 5th April 2017. There's obviously less urgency to put together the nuts and bolts on the software - indeed, that task must come after deciding which nuts and bolts - or legislation, as I like to call it - to use.

Legislation first. Software Development later. But Legislation is Truth.

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By emanresu
10th Dec 2016 12:25

lionofludesch wrote:

I believe Tim was making the same point as me.

Hence my posting being explicitly addressed to "Tim, and Lion"

lionofludesch wrote:

There's obviously less urgency to put together the nuts and bolts on the software - indeed, that task must come after deciding which nuts and bolts - or legislation, as I like to call it - to use.

Legislation first. Software Development later. But Legislation is Truth.

As last years tech spec was still being updated post 6/4/16 there is an urgency - an urgency to get it right. Remember the current discussions on AW sofware upgrades? Last year's SA tech spec went through SIXTEEN upgrades - and none of the versions were meant to be wrong. Are you sure that you can absolutely recognise what the legislation means when the HMRC team stumbled through iteration after iteration?

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Replying to emanresu:
RLI
By lionofludesch
10th Dec 2016 14:33

You flatter me.

My client base just isn't that complicated.

But - hey - you feel free to tell your clients that you've no idea what tax they'll pay for 2016/17 because you've no software to work it out for you.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By emanresu
10th Dec 2016 15:32

lionofludesch wrote:

You flatter me.

My client base just isn't that complicated.

But - hey - you feel free to tell your clients that you've no idea what tax they'll pay for 2016/17 because you've no software to work it out for you.

Now why should I do that? As I suggested further up the thread, I consider that, with the necessary understanding, this is a matter of pencil and paper. The only benefit third-party software will bring is a saving of time. The only downside will be the reliance on the software. Its mistakes will be seen as my mistakes - and that would irk!

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Replying to emanresu:
RLI
By lionofludesch
10th Dec 2016 15:45

Then to say that the point you're making is unclear would be a massive understatement.

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By emanresu
10th Dec 2016 16:11

lionofludesch wrote:

Then to say that the point you're making is unclear would be a massive understatement.

That neatly makes my point. Whether it is this exchange or the interpretation of legislation, one's truth is another's incomprehension; but as I said, "I don't want to be part of another "what is truth" discussion". I'm just looking for HMRC's - or anyone else's - input to test my understanding against.

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Replying to emanresu:
RLI
By lionofludesch
10th Dec 2016 16:49

You're not looking like the gold medal winner in the 2017 World Explaining Championships.

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Replying to emanresu:
James Reeves
By James Reeves
10th Dec 2016 14:27

emanresu wrote:
My quote is directly from HMRC's Software Developer Support Team, by the way, Tim. So any specifications released several months ago won't have come from them.

The specifications do come via the Software Developer Support team. SDS issued the first draft of the specifications in July. There have been a number of updates since then, the most recent being this week.

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Replying to James Reeves:
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By emanresu
10th Dec 2016 14:38

James Reeves wrote:

emanresu wrote: My quote is directly from HMRC's Software Developer Support Team, by the way, Tim. So any specifications released several months ago won't have come from them.

The specifications do come via the Software Developer Support team. SDS issued the first draft of the specifications in July. There have been a number of updates since then, the most recent being this week.

Hmm. I wonder why they didn't mention that? If you have an address where they're posting these, James, I'd welcome it.

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Replying to emanresu:
RLI
By lionofludesch
10th Dec 2016 08:06

emanresu wrote:

By the way, as of 7th December 2016, the HMRC position is that the "The 2016/17 [SA technical] specifications are currently being worked on". So it'll be a while before anyone knows how HMRC means to process SA returns for 2016/17.

Yeah, but we know the legislation.

But this confirms that the software can't be up yet.

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RLI
By lionofludesch
09th Dec 2016 14:55

www.backofafagpacket.com is the site you seek.

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By dbowleracca
09th Dec 2016 21:51

Not quite what you are looking for, but I have used a site recently called employed and self employed or something like that.

If you google self employed tax it comes up on page 1.

It's just a very basic website showing tax payable (and NI) for self employed, employed and limited companies.

I wouldn't use it for many cases but I had a prospect in earlier and used it to show him how much tax he might pay based on his forecasted profits. It works quite well for basic businesses.

I then showed him how much he might pay as a company, assuming he took all profits out of the company as dividends after a basic PA salary.

Sometimes you don't have tax software to hand, so this is quite a useful ready reckoner.

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By CMED
10th Dec 2016 16:00

I really hope that I'm not alone here in remembering how to calculate tax liabilities without the aid of a calculator.

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Replying to CMED:
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By emanresu
10th Dec 2016 16:23

CMED wrote:

I really hope that I'm not alone here in remembering how to calculate tax liabilities without the aid of a calculator.

Not yet, but you're definitely one of the endangered species!

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Replying to CMED:
RLI
By lionofludesch
10th Dec 2016 16:50

CMED wrote:

I really hope that I'm not alone here in remembering how to calculate tax liabilities without the aid of a calculator.

I'm constantly amazed by what folk can no longer do without the aid of a computer.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By CMED
10th Dec 2016 19:21

I've just been on a little trip down memory lane:

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/rates-of-surtax-1948-to-1973

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_taxation_in_the_United_Kingdom

Surtax and Investment Income Surcharge all calculated on a piece of paper using tax tables.

Thinking about it, I may have a set of tax tables up in the attic, I'm getting the Christmas decorations down from the attic tomorrow, I could look for the old tax tables if anyone is interested...

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By Patss
12th Dec 2016 13:57

The calculation of the taxes can get more complex with the new dividend rules, capital gains tax bands which is why we want to use a software which will calculate the taxes for us faster. We have a number of clients that we would like to project their tax positions for and hence it would be faster to input this into a software.

We are not looking to create excel spreadsheets to calculate the taxes as this can be time consuming.

Our current software provider is not able to provide us with their software yet which is why we wanted to see if there are other providers who supply this type of utility.

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By Matrix
12th Dec 2016 14:41

Try Taxfiler. I put in dividends today and it seemed to work, obviously it helps if you know what to expect.

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