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SA302's anyone??

SA302's anyone??

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Has anybody come up with a solution to the problem of obtaining SA302's from HMRC for client mortgage applications. I requested faxed copies today only to be told that the faxes will now take as long as the post - ie. 10 to 14 WORKING days. Apparently the policy of faxing on the same/next day no longer applies.

This is now causing problems for clients in the mortgage application process. It seems that online filers are being penalised because paper filers will receive an SA302 tax computation automatically.

My only thought going forward is for every SA client I complete, request the SA302's for 2012 & 2013 now and keep them on file and request 2014 once the tax return has been filed and accepted by HMRC.

Seems a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut but I can't think of any other way.

Any better suggestions welcome, short of the Mortgage companies accepting copy Tax Returns or HMRC posting SA302 calculations on client SA accounts.

Replies (45)

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By James Reeves
24th Oct 2014 12:20

Mortgage lenders to accept SA302's from tax software

HMRC are very aware of the issue and are currently finalising an agreement with the Council of Mortgage Lenders which will hopefully mean that SA302's produced from third party professional tax software will be accepted by mortgage lenders.

Details are still being finalised and a set of guidelines will be released to software developers shortly. Once these are forthcoming I would expect most tax software to provide the SA302 in the format necessary to be acceptable to lenders.

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Replying to Justin Bryant:
RLI
By lionofludesch
24th Oct 2014 12:22

Interesting

James Reeves wrote:

HMRC are very aware of the issue and are currently finalising an agreement with the Council of Mortgage Lenders which will hopefully mean that SA302's produced from third party professional tax software will be accepted by mortgage lenders.

But not their own software ?  Interesting.........

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By James Reeves
24th Oct 2014 12:26

HMRC software

There is likely to also be a "self-serve" option (e.g. download) from HMRC's own system, but no details yet available.

EDIT: Also bear in mind that the time taken for HMRC to update it's own software is likely to be longer than for commercial software.

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By Old Greying Accountant
24th Oct 2014 12:42

Thing is ...

.... takes more than 2 weeks to process the mortgage application etc. - if your client's are trained to talk to you about anything financial you can get these in hand the moment they tell you they are think of moving, extending etc.

What I don't know is why these cannot automatically be issued to agents via the government gateway once the return is processed?

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Dido63
24th Oct 2014 14:12

Well we all do our best to train our clients but some of them run amok regardless!!

Good to know that this issue is finally being addressed.

 

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By snrka
24th Oct 2014 12:34

Covering letter

I had a client recently who had the SA302's direct to them, provided them to the mortgage lender to be told they were no good without the covering letter which he couldn't remember if he'd even seen it - now had to request again, so the covering letter can be as much as an issue as the actual SA302's!

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By MzEden
24th Oct 2014 12:42

I always did think that faxing the same day was pretty good considering who we were dealing with.

Heaven forbid that HMRC should be seen to be efficient. This had slipped under their radar for far too long but now it's been picked up normal HMRC service (or lack of) can resume!

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By mgdrobinson
24th Oct 2014 13:42

I did not realise that....

I did not realise the same day fax service had disappeared. Certainly was quite handy when the client calls up wanting copies for mortgage application straight away.

I look forward to when everything with HMRC is online and in the format of online banking, so there is no need to stay hanging on the phone all the time!

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By DMGbus
24th Oct 2014 13:42

Fax SA302 issues

Some lenders will not accept Fax copy SA302 forms.

A reason stated is that for security reasons HMRC cross out the tax references by hand before faxing the SA302.

Experienced this a few weeks ago.

Some expensive software (eg. Sage Personal Tax) will not produce a form SA302 - it will however produce a tax calculation but it does NOT have "SA302" printed on it.

Some low cost software (eg. Fasttax) WILL produce a form SA302

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Replying to JCresswellTax:
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By Vaughan Blake1
28th Oct 2014 12:37

I wonder..

DMGbus wrote:

Some expensive software (eg. Sage Personal Tax) will not produce a form SA302 - it will however produce a tax calculation but it does NOT have "SA302" printed on it.

What would happen if we typed SA302 (substitute) on the bottom of our own tax computations...

What's that noise?  It sounds just like a box being ticked!

 

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
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By DMGbus
28th Oct 2014 13:19

SA302 format

Vaughan Blake1 wrote:

DMGbus wrote:

Some expensive software (eg. Sage Personal Tax) will not produce a form SA302 - it will however produce a tax calculation but it does NOT have "SA302" printed on it.

What would happen if we typed SA302 (substitute) on the bottom of our own tax computations...

What's that noise?  It sounds just like a box being ticked!

 

I would expect a lender to know what an SA302 looks like and reject the Sage tax calculation as it looks different on paper as well as lacking the HMRC logo.

I recently saw a lender recently reject an SA302 produced from another software recently as it lacked HMRC logo (but it was in correct format as it happens).

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By K81
24th Oct 2014 13:43

covering letter

some lenders are requesting covering letter & won't accept faxes as they are checking the address that HMRC have for the individuals.

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By sijolees
24th Oct 2014 14:00

Personal Tax Summaries

The Online Service is showing a note saying that these will shortly be available - will this be the equivalent to SA302s?

"Personalised tax summaries will be sent to around 24 million UK taxpayers from October 2014 onwards.If you’re a Self Assessment taxpayer, you can go online to see your tax summary. You’ll need to sign up for HMRC online services if you haven’t already. Your summary will be ready to view soon after you’ve submitted your tax return."

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Replying to mrme89:
By James Reeves
24th Oct 2014 15:08

Tax summaries

sijolees wrote:

The Online Service is showing a note saying that these will shortly be available - will this be the equivalent to SA302s?

I think these are the glossy brochures that HMRC is now sending to its "customers" that show the amount of tax they have paid and setting out what it has been spent on (in a pretty pie chart) so you can see how much you are personally contributing to health/education/wars etc.

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By Dido63
24th Oct 2014 14:15

Thanks for the input, all comments really helpful

Now for a large glass of wine.................

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By Roland195
24th Oct 2014 15:43

Underlying problem

The agreement with the Council of Mortgage Lenders does nothing to address the problem that they should not by relying in an SA302 in any format in the first place.

Can't wait for the first allegations of fraud from them when a client with low accounting profits but high taxable profits - high entertaining costs, expensive cars with private use etc ends up getting an "unaffordable" mortgage.

 

 

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By Vaughan Blake1
24th Oct 2014 16:43

Back to the old chestnut...

Clients who ask 'How come you are telling me that I have made a whopping profit but the bank overdraft has gone up, and I have big cashflow problems'!

The flipside to Roland's point is where clients have large AIA claims on assets not getting a mortgage.

 

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By Marion Hayes
24th Oct 2014 17:49

@lionofludesch

if you file your own return through HMRC software you have been able to print SA302's online for some time.

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Replying to Sandnickel:
RLI
By lionofludesch
25th Oct 2014 19:23

No help

Marion Hayes wrote:

if you file your own return through HMRC software you have been able to print SA302's online for some time.

But none of my clients do that.

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Replying to Sandnickel:
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By tillytrotter
05th Jan 2015 15:10

SA302

How as an agent am i able to download SA302. i use HMRC software to submit my returns but cannot see how i can download this except for the tax calculation but will mortgage lenders accept these

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By Marion Hayes
25th Oct 2014 22:04

Nor mine

but had a lot of problems with HMRC telling them they could print their own

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Replying to justsotax:
RLI
By lionofludesch
28th Oct 2014 08:50

Not surprised

Marion Hayes wrote:

but had a lot of problems with HMRC telling them they could print their own

So why can't we do it for them ?  It shouldn't need too much of a tweek to the software.

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By bigmuggsy
26th Oct 2014 17:20

The same day faxed SA302 hasn't disappeared. I rang last Thursday and was told it could only be faxed if the case was 'very urgent' which I replied it was. Thus faxed over within half an hour. I'm pretty sure (which is the usual with HMRC) it depends who picks up the phone and if they can be bothered getting off their backside to the fax machine!

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By MzEden
27th Oct 2014 09:01

Just after I forwarded this thread to the partners we had a fax through that we'd asked for that morning.

As Bigmuggsy says, it depends who you get and how helpful they feel.

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By Vaughan Blake1
28th Oct 2014 09:58

The amusing thing is...

A desperate borrower could (in theory) lodge a SATR early in the tax year with an 'accidental' whoops too many noughts type error.  Get an SA 302, obtain a mortgage, then submit an amended SATR with the correct figures in time to pay the tax on 31 January.

If lenders are serious about being more careful the answer is that they must obtain a better understanding of their customers, and stop relying on 'box ticking'. 

I find it deeply worrying that a signed certificate of taxable earnings from a qualified accountant is not good enough for lenders, yet a form effectively 'self generated' by the borrowers themselves via HMRC software is.

As an aside, my town has lost all its Building Societies, HSBC will close in December and Lloyd's doesn't sound too promising.  This would then leave just Barclays (we never had a Natwest).  The absentee banks suggest that we pay in via the Post Office.  Strange old world, and not one that encourages lenders to know their customers, their town or dare I say, the country where they live!

 

 

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Replying to aburt01:
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By Roland195
28th Oct 2014 13:48

Not just the desperate

Vaughan Blake1 wrote:

A desperate borrower could (in theory) lodge a SATR early in the tax year with an 'accidental' whoops too many noughts type error.  Get an SA 302, obtain a mortgage, then submit an amended SATR with the correct figures in time to pay the tax on 31 January.

If lenders are serious about being more careful the answer is that they must obtain a better understanding of their customers, and stop relying on 'box ticking'. 

I find it deeply worrying that a signed certificate of taxable earnings from a qualified accountant is not good enough for lenders, yet a form effectively 'self generated' by the borrowers themselves via HMRC software is.

Recent experience of the lending industry suggests it is not just the desperate who will be motivated to manipulate their taxable profits for the purpose of producing an SA302 that ticks the right boxes. 

Where it becomes fraud seems to be anyone's guess at the moment. 

"No man is under the smallest obligation, moral or other so to arrange his legal relations to business or property as to enable HMRC to put the smallest shovel in his stores"?

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By Vaughan Blake1
29th Oct 2014 09:03

OK another question

What format are the SA302s that taxpayers can generate 'online' and print off?  ie how secure and resistant to fiddling with are they?

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By daveah
29th Oct 2014 11:43

In fairness
Have found that rwhen equesting SA302 s using the SA agent only line, they turn up within 2 to 3 days.
Must admit, as soon as a client mentions moving house i make the call.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Nicki Sanday
29th Oct 2014 12:12

It depends who you speak to...

I phoned the agent-only line a couple of weeks ago to request SA302s for a client and was told that the lenders should now be excepting those produced by the tax software (for Returns submitted online) so they won't send out any paper copies now unless the lender has already refused to accept the software version.

So I've sent the client the software-produced ones, together with the submission history from the software and a screen print from the HMRC website where it confirms the date they received the Return.  I now have my fingers tightly crossed.

[Edited for typing errors]

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By KH
29th Oct 2014 12:11

HMRC Tax Calculation is equivalent of SA302

The online tax calculation by HMRC is "the same as" the SA302 ...  I just send a copy of that, along with a covering letter quoting HMRC's own guidance ...

"Receiving your tax calculation

HMRC will only send you a paper tax calculation, called form SA302, if: you sent in a paper tax return before 31 October and asked HMRC to work out your tax you made an amendment to a paper tax return you sent in a tax return but HMRC doesn't agree with your tax calculation

If you sent a paper tax return, you can also work out how much tax is due yourself. Follow the link below and download the tax calculation summary, notes and working sheets. If you do your tax return online, your tax calculation is worked out for you and you can see it on screen or print it.

Download the Tax Calculation Summary and notes

Sometimes you may be asked for your tax calculation by a bank or other lender as evidence of your income. You don't have to ask HMRC for a paper copy. If you do an online tax return, you can print off your tax calculation yourself. It may not show the form number - SA302."

 

So far this has always worked fine.

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Replying to Msweet:
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By Dido63
30th Oct 2014 08:45

Sending printout with HMRC statement

I have tried that too, without success. I guess it's all riding on the whim of the lender.

 

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By keithsharvey
29th Oct 2014 12:14

Blanking of UTR

Always found it strange that HMRC insist on blanking out the UTR on the SA302's before faxing yet show it in full on the cover sheet?!

 

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7om
By Tom 7000
29th Oct 2014 12:26

Hmmm..

Whats a fax machine?

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Replying to cramsden:
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By DMGbus
29th Oct 2014 13:11

HMRC - FAX rather than eMail

Tom 7000 wrote:

Whats a fax machine?

Some departments of HMRC are still in a time-warp as in using FAX rather than eMail for urgent communications.

In this context HMRC SA = Fax (but not eMail) and HMRC VAT = eMail (as well as Fax).

 

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By chunkycat
29th Oct 2014 13:17

SA302

I've just been to HMRC website. Search SA302, this is what comes up :-

'The Tax Calculation (SA302) can't be downloaded from the website.'

The .Gov website says 'You can print off a tax calculation SA302 when you do your online tax return'

I've tried this and it seems, as an agent, I am unable to do this.

So its back to HMRC to work out a system..........  I'm not holding my breath !

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Replying to paul.benny:
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By KH
29th Oct 2014 15:38

you can, but you probably have to have webfiled the return first

chunkycat wrote:

I've just been to HMRC website. Search SA302, this is what comes up :-

'The Tax Calculation (SA302) can't be downloaded from the website.'

The .Gov website says 'You can print off a tax calculation SA302 when you do your online tax return'

I've tried this and it seems, as an agent, I am unable to do this.

So its back to HMRC to work out a system..........  I'm not holding my breath !

You probably have to have webfiled the tax return in the first place ... I always print off the HMRC's tax calculations for my clients, just in case they ever need them. And it works fine.

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By ronlfoot
29th Oct 2014 18:50

The gospel according to Form SA302

 

Vaughan (Tue, 28/10/2014 - 09:58) is absolutely right.  Accounts could be drawn up to (for example) 6 April 2014 (basis period for 2014-15) submitted on a SATR to HMRC on the 6 April 2015 (latest file-by date 31 January 2016)  Get back by fax, post or pigeon a SA302 practically straight away and then have until 31 January 2017 to realise that an error has been made.

I make that about a twenty-one month window from submission (thirty-three from the year-end) for a loan application to be made based on figures which can be later corrected more or less without redress.

But as long as all the ticks are in all the boxes and all the forms with the appropriate number and logo are on the file, everybody's happy.  But as far as lenders are concerned Report SA151 from the Sage software is not nearly half as good as SA302 from HMRC. Understandable, I suppose, since HMRC is totally reliable and never makes mistakes.  And, of course, banks and building societies have never lent recklessly.

Deeply worrying indeed.

It's all just part of the crazy,surreal  and life-enhancing world of public practice (and life in general, I suppose).

Ron, the unchartered accountant

 

 

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By Alf
30th Oct 2014 09:12

Online SA302s

I was told by either a mortgage broker or the lender themselves (can't remember which) that would not accept the online tax calculation from the HMRC software. It had to be the paper one.

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Replying to Tickers:
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By Huw Williams
30th Oct 2014 10:10

Has to be paper

Alf wrote:

I was told by either a mortgage broker or the lender themselves (can't remember which) that would not accept the online tax calculation from the HMRC software. It had to be the paper one.

Um - dont HMRC print off SA302s from their software.  Or do they redo it manually to produce a proper calculation?

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By Huw Williams
30th Oct 2014 10:13

council of mortgage lenders

Strikes me the problem here is the mortgage industry asking for something which is not easily obtained when much better evidence (a signed accountant's letter) is available.

Sure an SA302 makes sense for unrepresented taxpayers, but for those with accountants....

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Replying to Red Leader:
By Red Leader
30th Oct 2014 11:50

leave me out!

I'd be quite happy if mortgage lenders made their decisions without any input from me at all!

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Replying to MJShone:
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By Huw Williams
30th Oct 2014 17:32

they already do

mortgage lenders already do

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By davidlchapman
30th Oct 2014 19:40

2 years overstated income

Re ronlfoot's comment above - that 17 month window allows for two incorrect SA302s to be obtained. Worrying, if I was a lender.

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By KH
05th Jan 2015 15:21

see my post above of 29/10/2014

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By wombat
04th Nov 2015 15:55

Any update on this... please?

Have banks started to accept the commercial software printouts of SA302?

 

 

 

 

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