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SEISS grant when enjoying a replacement trade?

Eligibility whilst enjoying a replacement self employment

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Our client has for many years been a self-employed entertainer – club and pub singer.
Covid 19 put a stop to that and the business has not yet resumed but there is no doubt that our client will continue back in the self-employment when conditions allow.
Like many, our client sought alternative "employment".  She got a position as a courier driver.  If this had been PAYE we would have had little doubt about her entitlement to continue claiming the SEISS grant in respect of her self-employment.

However, the courier driving is being treated as a second trade – self-employed and we are concerned whether the figures to be disclosed for making the fifth grant claim should be based purely on the singing – in which case you will be entitled to the full fifth grant but if the new self-employment has to be included she will be have no entitlement.

We asked HMRC on the telephone helpline and got no clear answer.

Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on this please?

Replies (10)

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By SXGuy
16th Sep 2021 16:51

If you read the guidance as to what is required in order to claim the 5th grant I believe it says something like total turnover of all self employment income. Which to me would be any and all self employed trades.

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Replying to SXGuy:
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By Geoff56
16th Sep 2021 16:55

Agreed.

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Replying to Geoff56:
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By Geoff56
16th Sep 2021 17:27

I missed the edit window, but what you need can be found here:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/work-out-your-turnover-so-you-can-claim-the-...

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By Paul Crowley
16th Sep 2021 22:07

Self employment is self employment whatever it is
Trying to claim extra free money when clearly making money is effing outrageous
Client wants free money despite working
Will greed never end?
If my client I would be incredibly direct and hoping that the client took offence as it would sour the relationship for quite a while

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Replying to Paul Crowley:
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By jonharris999
17th Sep 2021 07:43

I respectfully disagree with the excellent @ Paul Crowley.

The rules are the rules. Apply them. Don't second-guess them or subvert them. You don't deduct 44p per mile for mileage because, let's face it, 45p is quite generous.

Your client is the only person who can really judge if they qualify on the main condition for SEISS 5 - if there had been no crisis, would they be making more (I'm simplifying for speed) than they are this summer?

Then the other conditions are simple matters of fact (turnover in relation to ref period etc). You have told us nothing else which suggests ineligibility.

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Replying to jonharris999:
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By Paul Crowley
17th Sep 2021 09:58

"However, the courier driving is being treated as a second trade – self-employed and we are concerned whether the figures to be disclosed for making the fifth grant claim should be based purely on the singing – in which case you will be entitled to the full fifth grant but if the new self-employment has to be included she will be have no entitlement.

We asked HMRC on the telephone helpline and got no clear answer."

The OP suggests that both self employments together means that client would be ineligible
I understood qualification was based on self employment in total, not choosing one trade over another
Indeed I understood that continuing to be self employed qualified even if one trade stopped and a different one continued

It is however the case that the client ultimtely makes the decision. However this client has asked the OP and as such OP has become engaged.

To date all calculations done by HMRC based on tax returns
The 5th payment is the first that requires actual figures from client, figures that can later be checked by HMRC
I doubt that there is an opportunity to put two different trade income figures on the claim and as such entering just income from the signing trade would look deliberate

Quite clearly client gets a higher turnover in the new trade than old trade, but probably working more hours

My normal practice would always be to have just one set of accounts even if there is more than one type in income source for a self-employed client

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Replying to Paul Crowley:
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By jonharris999
17th Sep 2021 09:57

I really don't disagree but I think you should note that you are assuming something that you can't. The claim is not rendered ineligible by the income from courier-ing being bigger than the income from singing, supposing that it is. The question the client must answer (and I don't see why the OP shouldn't help him think about it, but let's not get all over that one again) is and only is, would they have made more profits in the relevant bp's this summer if there hadn't been a crisis.

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By Paul Crowley
17th Sep 2021 11:32

Jon is correct based on rules

"intend to keep trading in 2021 to 2022

reasonably believe there will be a significant reduction in your trading profits due to the impact of COVID-19 between 1 May 2021 and 30 September 2021"

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By Hanleymail
18th Sep 2021 18:14

Thanks everyone for your valued contributions. Looks like it’s a NO then.

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Replying to Hanleymail:
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By Paul Crowley
20th Sep 2021 22:09

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w79VyKjlh8

15minutes 21 seconds

Turnover from all businesses

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