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SEISS Not All Partners Paid

4 separate claims made by the same person from the same PC at the same time, only 2 paid

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A family partnership client has four partners, all with equal profit shares.  HMRC paid 2 x partners under the SEISS scheme but not the other two.  Four separate claims were made by the same person from the same PC at the same time so presumably the use of the same IP address for 4 x claims was enough to flag an issue to HMRC which prevented all four being paid..

I have been told by HMRC that “HMRC is aware of an IT issue which has delayed accounts being reset which is preventing payments being made. This is being urgently investigated“.  The first applications were made weeks ago and the issue notified to me on 18th June at which point I got the above explanation from HMRC.

Today I phoned HMRC and was told that the 2 x unpaid partners have to wait for contact from HMRC, which I assume will be on a worklist somewhere.  Has anyone else been able to resolve or expedite the same issue?  Is there any idea of timescale?

Thanks

Tim

 

Replies (30)

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RLI
By lionofludesch
26th Jun 2020 14:31

The big question is why is the same person making four claims ?

Three of them seem to be fraudulent.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Tim Robinson
26th Jun 2020 14:45

4 claims = 1 per partner!

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Replying to Tim Robinson:
By Tim Vane
26th Jun 2020 15:06

Tim Robinson wrote:

4 claims = 1 per partner!

That's 4 claims by 4 people, not 4 claims by 1 person.

Are all the circumstances the same (i.e. are they all eligible?)

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Replying to Tim Robinson:
RLI
By lionofludesch
26th Jun 2020 15:22

Tim Robinson wrote:

4 claims = 1 per partner!

If one person submitted them all, three of them have not made the declarations required. It's like sticking your signature on somebody else's tax return.

Still, there's a lesson to be learned here. Do your own claim.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Paul Crowley
26th Jun 2020 15:42

Agree
But HMRC looking for frauds. For example a tax agent helping a client that does not own a computer.
Dastardly tax agents, if only HMRC could find some way of putting them out of business.

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By Tim Robinson
26th Jun 2020 15:51

Crikey!

I thought I was asking a simple question. The senior partner made claims on behalf of himself and the other 3 partners. All are eligible because all have the same profits.

I know about the fraud stuff and if the client had asked for guidance before making the claims I would have warned him about the problem he would have if he did it this way. But hey, when agents are cut out of the process we just end up sorting out any mess.

If my question was not sufficiently clear that is my fault but can we move on from the picky stuff and actually answer the question I raised, which I thought might actually be topical?

Constructive answers will be gratefully received.

Tim

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Replying to Tim Robinson:
RLI
By lionofludesch
26th Jun 2020 16:10

Tim Robinson wrote:

Constructive answers will be gratefully received.

Tim

I only have one partnership left and they did their own claims so I've no experience of it. In fact, I'd be disappointed if a lot of folk on here put their hands up and said "yes, that happened to me too".

You can only point the finger at the senior partner. I'm guessing he doesn't sign the other partners' tax returns and he ought not to be making claims for other people.

I think he's going to have to sit it out, I'm afraid. He should be told that, technically, he's committed fraud. I can fully recommend the "my client's a gormless 'aporth" defence which has proved so successful for me in the past. But, if I were you, I wouldn't be shouldering any of the blame. This is on him.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Tim Robinson
26th Jun 2020 16:26

No, the senior partner does not sign others tax returns....

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Paul Crowley
26th Jun 2020 16:31

I do not have many partnerships left and advise against it for new businesses.

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Replying to Tim Robinson:
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By Paul Crowley
26th Jun 2020 16:15

No idea
But other covid issues requiring callback from HMRC are taking quite some time. 18th to 26th is only is still only 6 working days.

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By frankfx
26th Jun 2020 15:59

The individual making the claim has to notify compliance. His or her traceable digital thumbprint.

There can be no certainty that the one partner is fully cognisant of the other partners's total income.

HMRC need to draw a line in the sand.
Hence a flag is flying.

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Replying to frankfx:
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By Matrix
26th Jun 2020 17:16

HMRC don’t pay out if not eligible, no claimant needed their total income to hand when they claimed.

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By justsotax
26th Jun 2020 16:04

But I think that's the point Tim, HMRC set up the system so agents couldn't make the application. Instead each individual was required to make the application....so even though the issue may not be related, I think whoever calls them to find out what's going on is going to get a hard time when asked why they didn't submit their own application......

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By Tim Robinson
26th Jun 2020 16:24

Okay - you all got me....Let's forget the way that clients think despite HMRC putting responsibility for claims onto taxpayers. In my case a conscientious, experienced senior partner who knows all of his family's income and tax affairs (only source of income is the partnership) so was well able to make the declaration....

But I bet there are hundreds more instances like this and does anyone who cares to focus on the question know a solution?

Yours hopefully

Tim

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Replying to Tim Robinson:
RLI
By lionofludesch
26th Jun 2020 16:38

Tim Robinson wrote:

Okay - you all got me....Let's forget the way that clients think despite HMRC putting responsibility for claims onto taxpayers. In my case a conscientious, experienced senior partner who knows all of his family's income and tax affairs (only source of income is the partnership) so was well able to make the declaration....

But I bet there are hundreds more instances like this and does anyone who cares to focus on the question know a solution?

Yours hopefully

Tim

Tim - this is no criticism of you.

The fact is that the senior partner has dragged everyone into a fraud investigation that needs to run its course.

Nothing you can do. Except maybe nag HMRC. But at what cost to your time ?

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Replying to Tim Robinson:
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By Cheshire
26th Jun 2020 16:40

''Constructive answers will be gratefully received''

''does anyone who cares to focus on the question know a solution''

Always good to know the reason behind the issue that has occured that has now landed on your desk as a problem to be sorted and unfortunately not every Aweb poster was aware of the logins from one PC showing up, so its a fari point to make is it not, therefore surely that is part of the constructive answer.

Also - I think the others have provided the answer. As in you will have to sit it out.

The client who made all four claims could call the covid helpline (do you have that number?) and own up now, although Im pretty sure he will still have to wait for that call to come in that has laready been promised. Unfortunately you cannot rush HMRC with some of these matters, but might be worth him trying.

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Replying to Tim Robinson:
RLI
By lionofludesch
26th Jun 2020 16:39

Tim Robinson wrote:

But I bet there are hundreds more instances like this and does anyone who cares to focus on the question know a solution?

I bet there aren't because there aren't that many partnerships around these days.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Cheshire
26th Jun 2020 16:42

No but I bet there are similar fraud flags on folks accounts where the agent has naughtily applied (apart from the one poster on here a short while back who admitted to doing some twiddling with IP addresses....apparently!)

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Replying to Tim Robinson:
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By Matrix
26th Jun 2020 16:42

I would keep calling and ask for a call back from someone senior. Also get the unpaid partners to call separately and just explain that the same PC was used for all claims.

I don’t really understand all the fuss. Agents weren’t allowed to file but there must be plenty of people who use the same computer. My bookkeeper filed for herself, her husband and her son. I also have a partnership of 3 siblings who all share one email address.

I disagree that any fraud was committed. Tim did not say that the other family members weren’t present. They are a family so may all be the same household.

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Replying to Tim Robinson:
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By Paul Crowley
26th Jun 2020 16:50

I think everyone is trying to help by identifying HMRC contols against fraud and reason for delay.
I would strongly recommend the 2 taxpayers get the submission reference and deal with HMRC directly.
If they have nothing else to do, they have the time.
You do not
Cannot turn back the clock.
For the avoidance of doubt, probably the first time this issue raised on this platform.

By that a real intervention by HMRC, not discusion of multiple use of same computer

Be brutal other responders, cos I cannot read everything.

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By justsotax
26th Jun 2020 16:55

out of interest where is the claim being refunded to....partnership account of the individuals bank?

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Replying to justsotax:
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By Tim Robinson
26th Jun 2020 16:59

Partnership

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Replying to Tim Robinson:
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By lionofludesch
26th Jun 2020 17:06

Tim Robinson wrote:

Partnership

Sadly, another red flag.

These are personal claims. They needed to go to the partners' own accounts.

We're all learning here ..........

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Matrix
26th Jun 2020 17:53

Ross Martin says it depends what is in the partnership agreement.

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Replying to Matrix:
RLI
By lionofludesch
26th Jun 2020 18:00

Matrix wrote:

Ross Martin says it depends what is in the partnership agreement.

Maybe Ros Martin is right.

Still, the acid test is, is the money in the bank ?

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Replying to lionofludesch:
blue sheep
By Nigel Henshaw
27th Jun 2020 06:30

we had a client with 2 partners, both amounts paid into the partnership account so dont see this being the problem

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Replying to NH:
RLI
By lionofludesch
27th Jun 2020 09:46

NH wrote:

we had a client with 2 partners, both amounts paid into the partnership account so dont see this being the problem

The OP said two were successfully received. His problem was that there are four partners.

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By Tim Vane
26th Jun 2020 17:45

I am confused about the assertion that all the claims are the same because all the partners take an equal share in the partnership. This seems to miss the rather obvious fact that the partnership income is only one aspect of the claim, and each partner will have different circumstances outside the partnership. Partnerships are not taxed; partners are.

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By Matrix
26th Jun 2020 18:01

Do you mean one partner could be adversely affected and not another? Since it has already been confirmed this was the only source of income and, if any partner wasn’t eligible, then I assume the claim would have failed so this discussion would not be taking place.

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By Paul Crowley
26th Jun 2020 20:39

I fully appreciate Op's frustration. But it is client who needs to resolve as we are really just being asked about 2 delayed payments of SEISS, a system that HMRC want tax agents clear of and keep between HMRC and taxpayer.

Has anyone got a client with similar issue?

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