Self Employed Scheme rules published

The rules

Didn't find your answer?

Here are the rules for SEISS, so we can stop guessing

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

 

Replies (23)

Please login or register to join the discussion.

By Duggimon
01st May 2020 16:57

This says you don't have to have filed your 2018/19 tax return yet.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Duggimon:
avatar
By GW
01st May 2020 17:11

see 4.2 (b) and (c) with 4.3

2018/19 and if relavant 16/17 and 17/18 must be filed by 23rd April; 2019/20 does not need to be filed to qualify

Thanks (0)
Replying to GW:
By Duggimon
04th May 2020 13:41

Must have delivered a tax return for A relevant tax year on or before 23 April 2020

4.3 In paragraph 4.2, “relevant tax year” means all OR ANY of the tax years 2016-17, 2017-18 and 2018-19, as the case may be, for which a person’s trading profit and relevant income must be determined for the purposes of SEISS.

ergo if you filed a tax return for 2017/18 and are still trading, meeting the rest of the criteria, you qualify.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Duggimon:
avatar
By unearned luck
04th May 2020 16:18

But you wouldn't, in the ordinary case, meet the rest of the criteria. If, as will usually be the case, the profit for 2018/19 needs to be taken into account, the 2019 return must also have been filed by St George's Day.

Thanks (0)
Replying to unearned luck:
By Duggimon
05th May 2020 09:05

My point was simply that the legislation, as published, does not say that. And it doesn't, you're reading between the lines.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Duggimon:
avatar
By unearned luck
05th May 2020 17:59

No I'm not. A qualifying person must, inter alia, meet "the profits condition" (para 4.2(g)). Except in loan charge cases all three of the relevant profits conditions (Para 5) include a reference to the 2018/19 profit or loss. Para 4.3 thus, in effect, says that the profit or loss for 2018/19 "must be determined". It can't be determined if the 2019 TR wasn't filed by 23/4/20.

In any event the rules for determining the quantum of the grant (para 6) require, in non loan charge cases, the 2018/19 profit or loss to be included in the formula.

Finally and crucially, HMRC agree with my construction. Their guidance says "If you did not submit your Self Assessment tax return for the tax year [2018/19] on or before 23 April 2020 you will not be able to claim. "

Postscript:

It seems that in loan charge cases the 2018/19 profits are non required and therefor that year isn't a relevant year and thus the 2019 TR is not required. To this extent HMRC's guidance appears to be wrong. Does any one agree or disagree?

Thanks (0)
avatar
By PandoraSleeps
01st May 2020 16:58

Looks like nothing for FHLs then which seemed to be the consensus anyway.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By SXGuy
01st May 2020 17:12

Which said nothing about whether a client claims via their PTA or whether its an online form. So questions still unanswered.

Thanks (0)
.
By Cheshire
01st May 2020 17:15

Uses the word 'claim' a lot.

Thanks (0)
.
By Cheshire
01st May 2020 17:16

Oh sorry, GW, how rude of me.....thank you for posting the link!

Thanks (1)
avatar
By John Stone
01st May 2020 18:53

The revised guidance on the HMRC website says agents cant claim. Clients have to do it themselves.

Thanks (0)
Replying to John Stone:
avatar
By SXGuy
02nd May 2020 07:49

So do we take from that it's not going to be via the clients pta? Otherwise I'd have thought those with agent authorisation would be able to.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By chicka
01st May 2020 20:20

It states 'trading' profits and not 'taxable profits' did anyone else think it would be the latter like me?

Thanks (1)
Replying to chicka:
avatar
By John Stone
01st May 2020 20:48

According to the revised guidance on the HMRC website it is the profit shown as self employed or partnership in the tax calculation. Surely this is the taxable amount.

Thanks (0)
Replying to John Stone:
avatar
By SXGuy
01st May 2020 21:03

Not always. Losses used against profit reduces taxable profit doesn't it.

Thanks (0)
Replying to SXGuy:
avatar
By bettybobbymeggie
01st May 2020 21:13

...and your personal allowance

Thanks (0)
avatar
By fawltybasil2575
01st May 2020 22:49

@ chicka (your 20.20 post) and others.

To determine the meaning of "trading profits", one should refer to ITTOIA 2005, here:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/5/contents

You will note the heading of "Trading income" and then (below) "Trade profits" (effectively "Trading profits").

In all respects, "trading profits"/"trade profits" and "trading losses"/"trade losses" refer to the amounts respectively which are normally taxable/relievable.

"Trading profits" should thus NOT be confused with the Net Profit per the Trading and Profit and Loss Account (or similar).

Basil.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By jonharris999
02nd May 2020 12:34

Also, interestingly:

>>>Your tax agent or adviser cannot make the claim for you. You must make the claim yourself. If you use an agent you should contact them if you need any help or support.

Thanks (0)
Replying to jonharris999:
avatar
By fawltybasil2575
02nd May 2020 15:11

The extract per the jonharris post is of course from the GOV.UK guidance, here:-

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/claim-a-grant-through-the-coronavirus-covid-...

It is of course unacceptable that HMRC should not allow authorised agents to submit the online claims: the LEGISLATION itself does NOT prevent such authorised agents from submitting such claims.

Whilst the SEISS legislation refers to taxpayers' submitting claims, such legislation does NOT, ipso facto, prevent agents' making such claims in their agency role: in that respect the position is no different from an agent's submitting other types of claims to HMRC (where the legislation does not preclude their doing so) for example where a claim is submitted to HMRC via a Self-Assessment Tax Return (using the agent's software).

[The agent should of course, prior to submitting ANY claim to HMRC, obtain formal authorisation, from the client, to submit such claim: and IMHO there is no valid reason therefore why agents should not be allowed to submit their clients' SEISS claims under that same authorisation principle].

I would surmise that a major obstacle encountered by clients (and indeed taxpayers generally) in submitting their SEISS claims will be their inputting their "Government Gateway user ID and password" (see the third bullet in the "When you make your claim" paragraph of the GOV.UK guidance per the above link).

The GOV.UK guidance does state (in the How to claim" section) that where the taxpayer is "unable to claim online", then "an alternative way to claim will be available" and that they will provide an "update" to the page (including impliedly another claim process) "soon" (hopefully sooner rather than later, since such "alternative" process should have been considered by HMRC well before now).

Basil.

Thanks (1)
Replying to fawltybasil2575:
avatar
By unearned luck
04th May 2020 16:21

"It is of course unacceptable that HMRC should not allow authorised agents to submit the online claims: the LEGISLATION itself does NOT prevent such authorised agents from submitting such claims."

I agree that it is unacceptable, but disagree with the legal analysis. Para 3.2 delegates to HMRC the form and manner of the claim. The law is therefore simply what HMRC says it is.

Thanks (0)
Replying to jonharris999:
ALISK
By atleastisoundknowledgable...
03rd May 2020 10:25

jonharris999 wrote:

Also, interestingly:

>>>Your tax agent or adviser cannot make the claim for you. You must make the claim yourself. If you use an agent you should contact them if you need any help or support.

= we don’t want to answer your questions, so go bother your accountant with something they’d be hard pressed to charge for as we won’t let actually do anything. ‘Cos they’re not busy at the moment.

Thanks (1)
avatar
By bettybobbymeggie
02nd May 2020 19:54

What are we thinking about part years. The direction doesn't appear to stipulate that the trade has to have been carried on for the whole of any tax year. So individuals who commenced trading mid 2018/19 will be eligible but also anyone who commenced after 5th April 2016 will have their part year used in the calculation of average profits.

Thanks (0)
Replying to bettybobbymeggie:
avatar
By unearned luck
04th May 2020 16:32

I agree with your analysis, but eligibility and quantum are not the same thing.

Eg someone who commenced SE on 6/4/17 and someone who commenced SE on 5/4/18 will have their aggregate profit for 2017/18 and 2018/19 divided by two to arrive at the average profit . In the latter case the profits cover a year and a day, but are treated as two full years.

Thanks (0)