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Should children be invited onto Accountingweb?

Given that they demolished Brexit in the media yesterday, do they deserve a mention here?

Didn't find your answer?

I gave it a day, just to see what happened but....for those of you returning from Mars, here's what you missed yesterday: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/15/young-climate-chan... in fact, if it was a long trip, you've missed months of it.

The 15/16 year old Greta Thunberg (follow the link) told both COP24 & the WEF that they (the grownups?) were not mature enough and had been fiddling whilst the planet broke down and I have to say that, with a few execptions, this is how I feel about the business community and you lot.

Anyway, just needed to sow a seed and make sure something really important got a mention on here, I'm off to plan my veg planting, 

Replies (108)

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By Tim Vane
16th Feb 2019 14:26

Are these the same kids that we are told are vulnerable and easily radicalised and can’t be blamed for their own poor choices? Send them back to school until they learn to wipe their own faces and have actually done something useful.

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RLI
By lionofludesch
16th Feb 2019 14:55

Interesting about the insect population plummeting. It's not long since we were being told that there'd be plagues of insects in the globally warmed world. Scientists have been wrong for many years over many issues.

I didn't realise that HMRC had got as far as COP24 but if Greta Thunberg doesn't want to take her exams, that's fine by me.

I try not to worry about things I can't change.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By andy.partridge
16th Feb 2019 16:13

lionofludesch wrote:

I try not to worry about things I can't change.

Yes, some of our generation have done a fine job of scaring a younger generation that they are doomed. Child cruelty, you might say.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Jdopus
18th Feb 2019 13:40

Correcting your errors and constantly updating your findings on the basis of new evidence is the entire basis of the scientific method. Scientists are wrong over many issues, but when they're wrong they're proven wrong by the scientific method and other scientists.

As a more general point and not one directed at Lion alone, I would have thought that the population of Any Answers would have some understanding of why it may be better to trust experts on complex matters given how regularly posters have to be advised to stop trying to half-[***] their way through complicated subjects and seek the advice of a professional.

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By andy.partridge
18th Feb 2019 14:00

Should I trust an expert Jehovah's Witness on the future of the planet or an expert Scientologist on how I should live my life?

There are experts everywhere and when you scratch the surface many of them have an agenda and vested interest.

I agree, you should (be able to) trust an expert but finding one who is trustworthy can be damned difficult.

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Replying to andy.partridge:
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By Jdopus
18th Feb 2019 14:49

Remarkably facile to try and draw equivalencies between trained and qualified scientists and well regarded climate institutions and scientology. There will always be people taking advantage cynically or simply influenced by self interest in a subconcious way.

However you're suggesting that an entire profession or field is so utterly compromised that their opinion matters for less than someone with no experience whatsoever. Would you make the argument that lawmakers should ignore and exclude accountants from any discussions around tax and company law because our profession has a very obvious bias towards the interests of our clients? After all, our agenda and vested interest is if anything many times more obvious and explicit than any vested interests of climate science.

Re:Tornado
Climate change science is well aware of the natural variance in the earth's temperature over time and the causes of this. The relevant information is the timescale in which the current variance is taking place and it's one which massively and by orders of magnitude exceeds the natural fluctuations and variance in the earth's climate. We can live with the natural variation (As we don't have a choice), however the reality is that we're seeing changes which have taken thousands of years in the past taking place over mere decades .

We are not in control of everything, but it's quite obvious that the sum total of our behaviour over the last 100 years has had and continues to have a rapidly growing impact.

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Replying to Jdopus:
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By andy.partridge
18th Feb 2019 15:05

Jdopus wrote:

However you're suggesting that an entire profession or field is so utterly compromised that their opinion matters for less than someone with no experience whatsoever.

Haughty misrepresentation of what I said. Bottom line - beware of people who claim to predict the future.

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Replying to andy.partridge:
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By Tax Dragon
18th Feb 2019 17:24

It's not the future, Andy: it's happening now.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
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By andy.partridge
19th Feb 2019 15:43

The consequences of which are in the future. I think it strange to worry about this too much. We're all going to die anyway. Humans seem to forget this.

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Replying to Jdopus:
Tornado
By Tornado
18th Feb 2019 14:36

I have no doubt that there is climate change which can be traced back 12,000 years when there was a layer of ice one and a half miles thick northward of Watford. Retreating residents had been forced to walk southwards across the English Channel (which was dry) to better regions in mainland Europe until the ice started melting and filled up the seas again.

I am damn sure that the ice melting had nothing to do with me or the human activity at the time, it was just part of the natural climate cycle of the Earth which is still continuing.

Whilst pollution should be controlled along with gas emissions from cows and people, I think we should be looking at ways to deal with the effects of climate change, which will inevitably happen, rather than taking the incredibly arrogant view that we are in control of all of this.

You don't need to be a scientist to understand the obvious.

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By Tax Dragon
18th Feb 2019 17:16

Tornado wrote:

You don't need to be a scientist to understand the obvious.

And you don't need to be a genius to realise that taking something like 10 billion tonnes of carbon out of the lithosphere every year and pumping it into the atmosphere might just have an effect over time. What's changed is that we don't need to guess what that effect is any more - we can measure and model it.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
Tornado
By Tornado
18th Feb 2019 17:31

Tax Dragon wrote:

Tornado wrote:

You don't need to be a scientist to understand the obvious.

And you don't need to be a genius to realise that taking something like 10 billion tonnes of carbon out of the lithosphere every year and pumping it into the atmosphere might just have an effect over time. What's changed is that we don't need to guess what that effect is any more - we can measure and model it.

As far as I know there were no man made influences when the one and half mile thick ice sheet melted, so I don't see the connection.

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By Tax Dragon
18th Feb 2019 18:08

Maybe, though this is just a guess as I work in tax and dragoncy (I am not a scientist), the fact that manmade influences were not present back then gives the boffins a baseline without which measuring the man-made contribution would have been harder. The global warming equivalent of a control group.

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Replying to Tornado:
Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
19th Feb 2019 12:06

Just to put this into context, the natural warming that occurred following the last ice age is insignificant in comparison with what's been happening since the industrial revolution took off.

So, in the 10,000 years up until the year 1900, CO2 ppm rose 180 from 200 to 280. Last week it reached an all time high (4 months before the normal annual high) of 412, an increase of 132 in 119 years and is currently rising at about 4 ppm pa.

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By andy.partridge
16th Feb 2019 15:21

Think 'Lord Of The Flies'.
No, I don't mean you on your allotment.

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Replying to andy.partridge:
RLI
By lionofludesch
16th Feb 2019 16:13

Don't be ridiculous, Andy.

There'll be no flies !

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By andy.partridge
16th Feb 2019 16:14

Typo. I meant ‘files’.

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Replying to andy.partridge:
Stepurhan
By stepurhan
17th Feb 2019 19:36

Lord of the Files

Piggy is crushed by a filing cabinet with too much in the top drawer instead of a rock.

Where can I get a copy? :-)

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Replying to stepurhan:
Hallerud at Easter
By DJKL
18th Feb 2019 17:10

" In the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”"

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By Tax Dragon
16th Feb 2019 16:41

Paul Scholes wrote:

Should children be invited onto Accountingweb?

I thought we were already here en masse.

I'm intrigued - what happened in the 24 hours?

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By SXGuy
16th Feb 2019 17:24

Wait so a bunch of adults basically told kids what they think is happening to the planet, then those same kids went out and protested.

There was me thinking they actually did any research.

I think you need to look at the history of the planet over centuries and compare current climates.

It's amazing really how Al Gore managed to make so much money from carbon trading! It's almost as if, he created a problem to profit from it, but what do I know.

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RLI
By lionofludesch
16th Feb 2019 17:33

I'm wondering whether this lass just thought it'd be more fun to have a day off school.

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By andy.partridge
16th Feb 2019 17:51

Kids will be kids, the bigger problem is the virtue-signalling parents actively promoting truancy.

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By Tax Dragon
16th Feb 2019 19:19

Well no. Climate change will cost lives. A few children protesting during term time costs a little bit of wasted time on an Aweb thread.

Since (it appears) I've been on a trip to Mars (and haven't followed any links), how does any of this link to Brexit?

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By andy.partridge
16th Feb 2019 19:49

Oh, you think it really was about climate change do you?

I’m reminded of the recent one about Brexit. When the teenager was asked the most important thing the EU had given us she said ‘The NHS’.

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By Tax Dragon
16th Feb 2019 20:08

I don't know what what what was about. I do know that climate change is a more serious issue than whatever y'all are talking about.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
Hallerud at Easter
By DJKL
16th Feb 2019 20:26

It had better be more serious, I funded an MA in Sustainable Development at St Andrews re my daughter, so if it is of no import I wasted my money. Her dissertation was re NDC performance measurement post COP21, fascinating stuff I am sure though not where I would particularly want to take my career.

Still, it got her on to her current MSc course so it cannot be all bad. (Just so long as I do not now get, "Dad, can I do a Phd next, it will only cost you £xxxxx"

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By andy.partridge
16th Feb 2019 20:28

Aren’t you missing what the OP is about?

Just in case you don’t it was about Freedland’s piece in the Guardian and how ashamed he is. I would be if I was employed by the Guardian.

Anyway, the content had me nearly choking on my quinoa and chickpeas. However important the subject matter it will not be affected by a bunch of kids bunking off school to yell slogans about the PM. Like she is personally responsible for emissions in China, Russia and India. It’s fatuous.

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By DaveyJonesLocker
16th Feb 2019 17:59

We have enough people coming on asking for free advice then stomping their feet and saying "I HATE YOU" thanks

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By memyself-eye
16th Feb 2019 18:22

I took my (grand) children to the protest in my Hummer....

Not one of them objected.

Next time I'll use the Abrahms

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By DaveyJonesLocker
16th Feb 2019 20:20

I'd rather they spend time learning how to speak English. Nowadays they seem to use the word "like" all the time. Was behind one the other day starting each sentence with "He was like", "She was like", "I was like"
Wanted to cuff them on back of the head and say "It's HE SAID, SHE SAID, I SAID child" but that's not the done thing anymore.

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Replying to DaveyJonesLocker:
Tornado
By Tornado
16th Feb 2019 21:14

"Like" matters more to those on social media than anything else at all.

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By atleastisoundknowledgable...
17th Feb 2019 14:14

Was it a case that they “turned around and was, like, ...”, to which t’other “turned around and was, like, ...”

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By 356B
16th Feb 2019 21:12

If we made them aware of the facts they wouldn't believe us, because 10 years of indoctrination requires Governmental re-education to overcome. It's just a day off school.

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Replying to 356B:
Tornado
By Tornado
16th Feb 2019 23:30

"It's just a day off school."

Perhaps, but this kind of social engineering can have wider consequences. What if your child was instructed to report you every time you failed to re-cycle properly?

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By Tax Dragon
17th Feb 2019 07:14

I get the 1984 reference, but, as a recent Justin thread shows, we still live in a country where judges exercise common sense. If the reason you are not recycling properly is good, you'll be OK.

What is the reason?

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
Tornado
By Tornado
17th Feb 2019 10:37

In was not actually referring 1984 as that is fantasy, but there are plenty of examples in real life history (and probably now in some countries) where children have been/are used to spy on their parents, family and each other and report their findings.

As you say, however, I think common sense will prevail as with some 8 million children in school in the UK I believe that only 10,000 did not go to school in protest. The media, of course, are experts at making things look bigger and more dramatic than they are.

Having said that, Climate Change is something that is important, needs to be addressed and is being addressed so I have no quarrel with this, I just don't see why this had to be something that attempted to shut down schools en mass on a school day and quite possibly involved children who did not necessarily support the protest or believed in this type of action.

I remember being forced to pay a donation to the Labour Party when I had to join the Student's Union when I was doing my studying and felt this was completely wrong as I did not support the Labour Party. I fear that this sort of Union Style enforcement of ideas in schools should be illegal and hit hard before it becomes the norm.

Children are easily manipulated and should not be used in this way.

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By daniel_
17th Feb 2019 09:56

Schools teach kids about how much damage has been done to the planet and how their future is the one that's at risk if action isn't taken to slow/reverse climate change over the next 20 years.

The kinds of changes required to combat climate change are not the kinds of changes which win votes. 'Everyone is going to be worse off now so that people in 50 years will be better off' is not a platform that will get you elected.

I think it's immature for the kids not to understand this. A politician who pushes for this kind of policy will just be voted out, no matter how good their intentions may be.

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Replying to daniel_:
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By Tax Dragon
17th Feb 2019 10:16

Just to clarify, as what you say can be read either way, are you saying that children are immature not to understand that adults vote based on short term self interest?

Sounds like an argument to take the vote away from people aged over 30 to me.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
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By daniel_
17th Feb 2019 16:02

I think calling elected officials immature for not "doing their homework" on long term issues isn't really fair. Them and the platforms they were elected on are a product of the system.

Criticising a politician for doing unethical but legal moves to get them elected is the same as criticising companies of exploiting unethical but legal tax loopholes.

I'm not sure what the solution is. Better education on climate change? That's the cause of this protest.

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Replying to daniel_:
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By Tax Dragon
17th Feb 2019 16:19

daniel_ wrote:

I think calling elected officials immature for not "doing their homework" on long term issues isn't really fair.

I agree. And no-one has said that, that I've noticed.

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Replying to daniel_:
Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
18th Feb 2019 22:10

Hi Daniel - to her credit the minister, Claire Perry, was the on her own in praising the students on Thursday morning saying that if she'd been that age she'd have struck and she went on to say (as per your claim) that the conservatives had brought climate change into the school curriculum, but that's not strictly true, which is one of the main reasons for the strike in the first place.

https://www.tes.com/news/government-failing-ensure-pupils-are-taught-rea...

I spent a couple of hours with striking students, parents and teachers that morning and all the students (from 3 local schools) said that only those studying geography at GCSE were given anywhere near enough info, with some others saying that it was mentioned occasionally in biology.

The effect of the summary info gained was to spur them into researching it themselves and those 14-17 year olds were more knowledgeable than most adults I speak to.

If anyone bothers to look at Greta Thunberg's posts and history, you would see that this is her story, with serious doubts from her parents, she did the research and formed her own opinions, she wasn't indoctrinated and manipulated as so many claim (without proof).

So kids are, in fact, being mature and assertive in shouting about this stuff and, if politicians fail to push uncomfortable policies, for fear of their own position, then should we not vote them out?

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Replying to daniel_:
Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
19th Feb 2019 13:16

dup

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By Glenn Martin
17th Feb 2019 17:18

Had Scholsey lit the touch paper on this then went to tend to his leeks

Bigger problem surely over population

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Replying to Glennzy:
Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
17th Feb 2019 18:36

Hey Glenn, thanks for dropping in.

You changed my sowing a seed analogy to lighting the touch paper which, given one of the main underlying issues, is either very clever or just spooky.

With regard to the population question, as with so much in life, it's not the size that matters it's what you do with it or allow it to do.

So when the scientists told us about the amount of damage being done by the GH gas and particulate emissions of our cars, there was no major call to reduce the number on the road but rather we needed to look at better ways to power them.

We have more than enough land and resources to feed the current 7bn, and expected 10bn, population, only not in the way we have been doing it.

Besides, if we just carry on as we have been, the planet will deal with it for us. It varies depending on parameters and whether countries will be prepared to take in food/water refugees ("coming over here drinking our water") but I've seen estimates of between 2bn and 5bn in a 100 years time.

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By Tax Dragon
17th Feb 2019 19:07

Paul Scholes wrote:

We have more than enough land and resources to feed the current 7bn, and expected 10bn, population....

Is eating all you think about? Is it all you think the 10bn will want to do?

I agree your last point though. There's no such thing as "sustainable growth". And climate change is just one of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
17th Feb 2019 20:16

Hi TD - yes, I am a bit obsessed with food but then I was answering Glenn and food/water insecurity is often used as the reason to discuss population control, ie how are we going to feed all these people?

The way in which we transport ourselves, including flying, as well as heating our homes is important for climate change but, on an individual level, the way in which we source our food, in particular livestock & dairy, covers most of the elements of damage from climate change through chemical and effluent run-off, soil degradation, biodiversity loss and fresh water use.

You are right, given our practices over the past century+, growth is unsustainable. Growth, for growth's sake (the western economic mantra for so long) just makes us fat and unhealthy so, at best, we need to try sustainable inertia by getting far more from the resources we have, with less waste.

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Replying to Paul Scholes:
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By Tax Dragon
18th Feb 2019 17:20

Hi Paul. You could teach me something useful here. What is the least damaging way to source my dairy?

Assume that I don't have the space to keep my own goat.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
19th Feb 2019 11:40

Hi again TD - let me answer that with an old Tommy Cooper joke.

Tommy: "Doctor, every time I lift my arm it hurts"
Doctor: "Don't do it then"

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Replying to Paul Scholes:
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By Tax Dragon
19th Feb 2019 14:13

I’ll be honest, Paul. Just as I am bewildered by the attitude (I can’t decide whether it’s wilful ignorance or simple arrogance) displayed by the likes of 356B, so too I am bemused by those dreamers and mindless optimists that suggest (forgive this simplification of what you seem to be saying) that 10 bn people could happily live side by side in peace and harmony (with themselves and nature) if only we’d kill all the cows and lived off leaves and vegemite.

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