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Should you be able to pay for the vaccine?

A wealthy client seems to think so.

Didn't find your answer?

A client called today and, in the course of the usual catch up regarding the pandemic, they said they were going to try and get a vaccine privately.

I don't think this is currently possible but should it be?

We live in a capitalist society where money can usually buy you what you want. If you have a private jet it seems you can currently travel. 

Will there be a black market for the vaccine?

[Anonymous out of choice. Not really relevant to these boards except we probably all have clients where money certainly gives them more options than other folk.]

Replies (39)

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By Tax Dragon
12th Jan 2021 06:32

Would you, personally, buy a black market vaccine? Who knows what would get put in your arm!

And no... the reason for doing it the way it is being done is so that the government knows what has been put in your arm. So they know you have actually been vaccinated, not possibly vaccinated/possibly defrauded (and hence a greater risk to yourself and everyone else). Public health beats private wealth.

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By SteveHa
12th Jan 2021 08:32

As someone with a definite socialist leaning, I would say emphatically "No".

Health and life should not be dependent upon wealth and means. The value of life is not measured in monetary terms.

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By mumpin
12th Jan 2021 09:19

Yes, of course you should be able to pay for it.
The NHS just rations healthcare in an extremely opaque manner.
Much cleaner to say that the vaccine is £2,000 in January, £1,500 in February, etc

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By bernard michael
12th Jan 2021 09:26

Because of supply problems that would mean that a privately bought vaccine would deny someone else the jab

Would the client think that's right or is he too arrogant to think that far????

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Replying to bernard michael:
By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
12th Jan 2021 09:34

Quite, there is nothing like selfish over privileged people who think having money means they are better than other people.

Moreover the vaccine does not confer immunity. The lack of scientific understanding is rife in this country, and I fear all it will mean is people taking much great risks with other peoples lives in terms of travel, mask wearing and personal space.

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Hallerud at Easter
By DJKL
12th Jan 2021 09:40

If the price is right, lets say £100 million for the first shot and £75million for the second, cheque payable to the NHS . Half a bus seems fair. You can also later pay £100m for the police protection when your name gets released to the public.

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RLI
By lionofludesch
12th Jan 2021 10:19

I don't have time for wealthy, priveleged clients with this level of entitlement.

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By Mr_awol
12th Jan 2021 12:46

It is absolutely wrong for people to be able to privately pay for a vaccine if that jab will come out of (or delay) NHS or other governments' ordered supplies.

If, however, a manufacturer (say Pfizer for the sake of an example) had spare capacity and was offering vaccines to private clinics, then i don't see any issue with that clinic (or their customers) making private arrangements. If anything it saves the healthcare system money.

Of course, there currently isn't any spare capacity and as such this is a moot point - at the moment. There may, however, come a time when it is acceptable.

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Replying to Mr_awol:
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By Tax Dragon
12th Jan 2021 14:02

So long as you are measuring "spare capacity" globally, I agree. That's somewhat different from the £2000 January, £1500 February - and presumably you get paid from June onwards - statement above.

And it all seems a bit pointless. Coronavirus isn't going to go away. Like flu, we may have to get used to (annual?) jabs. I'm not aware of a pay-per-jab/black market system with flu, but that could simply be because I live on my own planet. Is there one?

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
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By mumpin
12th Jan 2021 14:52

Flu jab only has 15% efficacy rate.
Who is going to pay for that?
Its purpose is to keep 15% of wrinklies out of ICU beds.

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Replying to mumpin:
RLI
By lionofludesch
12th Jan 2021 15:14

Quote:

Flu jab only has 15% efficacy rate.
Who is going to pay for that?
Its purpose is to keep 15% of wrinklies out of ICU beds.

It's higher than that. It varies year to year but, typically, it's between 50% and 60%.

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Replying to mumpin:
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By Tax Dragon
12th Jan 2021 15:27

I was expecting someone to say "of course there're privately-funded flu jabs, don't you know nuffink, Dragon?" Instead you've made me seem quite knowledgeable by talking complete cobblers yourself.

Anyway my point was one of principle. You're talking about paying to jump queues in the current situation, not to supplement an existing vaccination program, or (annual?) jabs going forward. Queue-jumping currently (wealthy individual gets the jab; frontline worker doesn't) would be repugnant; morally, certainly, but perhaps more than that.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
RLI
By lionofludesch
12th Jan 2021 15:48

Worth pointing out that you can buy run-of-the-mill-flu jags for around a tenner - which, they tell me, is pretty much the price of a prescription these days.

I wouldn't know, I'm too old to pay.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
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By mumpin
12th Jan 2021 16:31

This is from gov.uk site:

"Public Health England (PHE) has today (Wednesday, 18 July 2018) published data on the effectiveness of the flu vaccine in the 2017 to 2018 season. The data show that overall, flu vaccine was 15% effective in all age groups."

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Replying to mumpin:
RLI
By lionofludesch
12th Jan 2021 16:46

Quote:

This is from gov.uk site:

"Public Health England (PHE) has today (Wednesday, 18 July 2018) published data on the effectiveness of the flu vaccine in the 2017 to 2018 season. The data show that overall, flu vaccine was 15% effective in all age groups."

https://vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/vk/inactivated-flu-vaccine

Yeah - you've picked three year old data because it supports your point. 2017/18 was exceptionally low. The two years either side were three times higher.

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Replying to mumpin:
Hallerud at Easter
By DJKL
12th Jan 2021 15:43

Not sure on the wrinklies bit, sure a few sags are showing these days but not that many wrinkles- I had my first ever flu jab last year.

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Replying to DJKL:
RLI
By lionofludesch
12th Jan 2021 16:06

Quote:
I had my first ever flu jab last year.

Me too.

I might have had flu in 1979 - I'm not sure. Never had it any other year.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
By SteveHa
12th Jan 2021 16:25

I refuse the flu jab every year (despite diabetes) simply because it always floored me for a fortnight.

Actually got flu this year, and back up to full strength inside of 6 days.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
Hallerud at Easter
By DJKL
12th Jan 2021 17:37

I either had flu or very early Covid in December 2019, my son came back from the USA, he went down with something about the 17th/18th, I went down with it on the 26th and was flat out until the 4th/5th January, started with fever/shivering/sore bones for three days, then throat was sore a day, then felt slightly better when a cough developed that was really sore re my chest, I ended up sleeping upright in a chair for four nights, not pleasant . (And wrecked my Christmas holiday) Daughter seemed to get a lighter version but it ignored my wife (who always gets flu jab) so maybe flu or maybe three of us had Covid and we did not know.

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By Kate Cottrell
12th Jan 2021 15:39

There was an article in the Telegraph on Saturday about how many are flying to Dubai for the private vaccination. Many also take the time to have a break in the sun whilst there. Like many things in this world it is possible to buy most things without considering the morality or not of the purchase.

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Replying to Kate Cottrell:
RLI
By lionofludesch
12th Jan 2021 16:04

Ah, right - travel for a Covid jag to one of the world's current Covid hotspots.

Makes sense.

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By Youareatit
12th Jan 2021 15:56

[quote=]

''Anonymous out of choice.''

That applies to everyone who posts anonymously.

Doesnt mean it meets with the rules of the site nor is sensible in most cases.

In this case, why are you hiding?

Perhaps your self entitled client will get a shot in the arm of whatever that old person did the other day. Or novichok.

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My photo
By Matrix
12th Jan 2021 16:07

I don’t think the virus cares how much money you have, money is certainly not going to protect you and won’t get you the vaccine any more quickly. The virus has also normalised those in the public eye, they are just people behind a screen at home like the rest of us. Although some of them have more books than me.

The only benefit is probably that you have more space stuck at home so it makes it easier.

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By Mr_awol
12th Jan 2021 17:23

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-55593210

They are already trying. This would count as black market i imagine. Seems easy money for anyone willing to sell out their patients (give the 85 year old a flu jab instead of covid, save their dose for mr £5k).

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Replying to Mr_awol:
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By Tax Dragon
12th Jan 2021 17:34

Or vice-versa... give Mr 5k a flu jab, he won't be any the wiser.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
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By Mr_awol
12th Jan 2021 21:00

I like your style. That’ll learn ‘em

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Replying to Mr_awol:
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By Tax Dragon
13th Jan 2021 06:55

It's not that so much. (It wasn't supposed to sound vindictive.) But 'they' are tracking who has - officially - had the vaccine. Presumably Mr £5k in your scenario is off the radar. 'They' don't know he's had it (nor does he, see my first reply). But 'they' will be monitoring outcomes... but obviously only in cases 'they' know about. So they'll be watching the 85yo, but not Mr £5k.

Depending how large scale the malpractice (done your way, where the 85yos get the fake vaccine... and haven't most of those been done already, so fraudster needs a younger range of victims, making my point here more relevant) might be, it could at worst skew the stats (which could in turn influence government's response) or, if it's just one or two malpractitioners, reveal itself because of statistical variation.

Were I a black market needle-in-arm-sticker-inner, and had a reasonable uptake on my services, I'd want to cover my tracks. Maybe Mr £20k would get the real thing, Mr £5k would at least be safe* from flu and I'd flip a coin for Mr £10k. (But my criminal mind seems less well-developed than yours, so I'll go with whatever you advise.)

*Somewhere between 15% and 67% safer, anyway. Incidentally, about those stats, the problem is that flu has many varieties (it's been around a long time) and the different variants require different vaccines (no vaccine works against all variants). 'They' have to anticipate which flu variants will be doing the rounds each year, and inoculate accordingly. Some years they anticipate less well than others. (It's not that the vaccines aren't efficacious; it's that folk weren't given the most appropriate vaccine.) Coronavirus will develop new variants. It already has.** We are basically pretty bloody fortunate that it appears the vaccine is effective against all extant variants. While that remains true, and if there is sufficient worldwide uptake of the vaccines, there may be a realistic chance of eliminating the virus altogether. (I'm not hopeful, hence some of my more depressing comments on threads like this - but I long to be proved wrong.) If a variant emerges in the meantime that none of the current vaccines protects against, then it'll end up - well, like flu is now. But possibly more dangerous to more people.

**And the more times it is transmitted before the world gets vaccinated, the more risk there is that it will have developed variants against which the current vaccines are not effective. Hence stay home, avoid transmission, help beat the virus.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
Quack
By Constantly Confused
13th Jan 2021 08:32

Quote:

Or vice-versa... give Mr 5k a flu jab, he won't be any the wiser.

Please don't do that, the one thing we don't need at the moment is people thinking they are immune and acting like they are now safe to be around...

In fact while I have you, even when you get your jab - you still need to socially distance, we still aren't sure whether vaccinated people can pass it on or for that matter whether the vaccine will have worked in your case. Please please please keep socially distancing until told otherwise, the vaccine does not change that stance.

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Replying to Constantly Confused:
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By Tax Dragon
13th Jan 2021 09:10

Agree entirely.

And that's one reason why paying for a vaccine (which may or may not be the real deal) shows you are thicker than a Lister special chilli chutney sandwich. Lockdown rules still apply to you; you can't do any more than you could have without the vaccine. So what was the point? Sticking to social distancing and lockdown rules is by far your best hope of staying virus free.

Incidentally (and for this I feel I need to invent the chilli chutney double), not only is there no such thing as a vaccine 'passport', but, even if the government brings in freer movement for the vaccinated than for everyone else, as Mr £5k got his vaccine in some dodgy backstreet clinic he won't even get a 'passport'! (That'll cost another £50k.)

Anyway, I've opined too much in this thread. Probably talked a lot of nonsense. I'll stick to questions on IHTA in future. There's not so many of them.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
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By Mr_awol
13th Jan 2021 11:20

Quote:

Agree entirely.

Lockdown rules still apply to you; you can't do any more than you could have without the vaccine. So what was the point?

My main Mr 5ks generally have a penchant for fois gras, drinking too much, and not exercising enough. As such they are probably at higher risk of ill effects of the virus and will probably see this as in investment in a long(er) and happy(in most cases) life.

Of course the irony is that if they spent their £5k on kitting out a home gym and the odd PT session they wouldn't be so morbidly obese and would lower their risk level not only for Covid by many other ailments. They wont do that though

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Glenn Martin
By Glenn Martin
12th Jan 2021 18:24

I have a client who works overseas for about 10 months of the year but is currently sidelined from travelling to many places until vaccine.

He seems to think he will get a jab before the general population as “he is promoting Uk industry globally” he claims to have contacts from legit healthcare providers who will be able to vaccinate him as soon as first wave of vaccines done.

I would not be suprised if some truth in this as I am sure soon PL footballers will be able to pay for it to get season running without the current issues and I am sure they will pay happily to get the money off Sky

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Glenn Martin
By Glenn Martin
12th Jan 2021 18:24

I have a client who works overseas for about 10 months of the year but is currently sidelined from travelling to many places until vaccine.

He seems to think he will get a jab before the general population as “he is promoting Uk industry globally” he claims to have contacts from legit healthcare providers who will be able to vaccinate him as soon as first wave of vaccines done.

I would not be suprised if some truth in this as I am sure soon PL footballers will be able to pay for it to get season running without the current issues and I am sure they will pay happily to get the money off Sky

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Glenn Martin
By Glenn Martin
12th Jan 2021 18:24

I have a client who works overseas for about 10 months of the year but is currently sidelined from travelling to many places until vaccine.

He seems to think he will get a jab before the general population as “he is promoting Uk industry globally” he claims to have contacts from legit healthcare providers who will be able to vaccinate him as soon as first wave of vaccines done.

I would not be suprised if some truth in this as I am sure soon PL footballers will be able to pay for it to get season running without the current issues and I am sure they will pay happily to get the money off Sky

Thanks (0)
Glenn Martin
By Glenn Martin
12th Jan 2021 18:24

I have a client who works overseas for about 10 months of the year but is currently sidelined from travelling to many places until vaccine.

He seems to think he will get a jab before the general population as “he is promoting Uk industry globally” he claims to have contacts from legit healthcare providers who will be able to vaccinate him as soon as first wave of vaccines done.

I would not be suprised if some truth in this as I am sure soon PL footballers will be able to pay for it to get season running without the current issues and I am sure they will pay happily to get the money off Sky

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Replying to Glennzy:
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By Tax Dragon
12th Jan 2021 19:03

When will they invent a multiple-posting vaccine?

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By Justin Bryant
13th Jan 2021 08:58

I'd be very surprised indeed if it's as tricky in practice as it apparently was for some random rich bloke to buy himself a place in a lifeboat on Titanic.

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Replying to Justin Bryant:
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By bernard michael
13th Jan 2021 09:04

Quote:

I'd be very surprised indeed if it's as tricky in practice as it apparently was for some random rich bloke to buy himself a place in a lifeboat on Titanic.


Apparently quite a few people paid to jump the queue to get on the Titanic passenger list. So perhaps those that buy the vaccine may end up getting Covid . However it would be the Dubai or Monaco variation not the common poor persons version
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Replying to SteveHa:
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By I'msorryIhaven'taclue
15th Jan 2021 21:06

A simple prick? Well I'm going to take Matty Stopcock's line, that there's no evidence that this new vaccine isn't effective. Ergo it could work. Maybe we should approve it, pronto, and order a few million jabs-worth.

And to save us elderly from having to make long journeys, we could open vaccination hubs next to the cake counters at garden centres, and at post office queues; maybe even outside estate agents' windows.

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