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By mrme89
14th Aug 2017 00:16

It is not advisable to learn on the job. People paying you for a professional service expect you to be competent, and not use them as a training tool.

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By johngroganjga
14th Aug 2017 03:49

You say you are qualified, but what qualification do you have and how did you acquire it?

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By User deleted
14th Aug 2017 09:08

I am ACA qualified from an audit firm and now work full time in a bank but I am still not confident doing client work. I have done my own self assessment for rental income and thats it.

I think we all have to begin somewhere and learn the trade. So hopefully someone will have some tips for how to go about gaining experience?

I have started offering my services for free for now, and being upfront that I am just starting out.

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By Cheshire
14th Aug 2017 09:20

Dw4518 wrote:

I am ACA qualified from an audit firm and now work full time in a bank but I am still not confident doing client work. I have done my own self assessment for rental income and thats it.

I think we all have to begin somewhere and learn the trade. So hopefully someone will have some tips for how to go about gaining experience?

I have started offering my services for free for now, and being upfront that I am just starting out.

Which area of banking and which bank? I ask because, rather than offering to work endless hours for free (which still wont be appreciated and wont mean clients wont sue you if you do something wrong), surely you can use some of your/your colleagues contacts to get an intro into one of the medium sized firms that the banks clients use. Do a couple of years and get some real experience under your belt which will then enable you to get a practice certificate from one of the bodies.

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By User deleted
14th Aug 2017 10:03

thank you for your advice :) unfortunately I am not in a client facing role and all of our clients would be too complex for me. I am thinking of the one man small business owner.

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By lionofludesch
14th Aug 2017 10:22

I infer that Cheshire was suggesting an accountancy practice, where you could learn stuff.

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By User deleted
14th Aug 2017 11:37

ah yes sorry I misread that totally! now it makes a lot more sense!

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By andy.partridge
14th Aug 2017 12:13

Dw4518 wrote:

I have started offering my services for free for now, and being upfront that I am just starting out.

Serious lowballing will not win you sympathy from fellow accountants or gratitude from clients if you get it wrong.

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By lionofludesch
14th Aug 2017 07:29

I wouldn't have been comfortable completing tax returns if I'd never done it before.

You're qualified - whatg have you done with your career so far ? Do you have a practising certificate ?

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By User deleted
14th Aug 2017 09:25

I am applying for my PC and getting indemnity insurance.

As for my career I have been in financial services and banking industry for 10 years (post audit), doing financial accounting and reporting which is not at all technically challenging except possibly ifrs9.

I have always dreamed of helping the small business owner do their accounting, so after reading an inspirational post on here I thought I should go for it!

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By bernard michael
14th Aug 2017 10:18

How will you live without a decent salary, which you won't get from an embryo practice

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By User deleted
14th Aug 2017 11:45

I am not quitting my day job. I just want to learn to do client work as my hobby on the side :)

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By User deleted
14th Aug 2017 12:46

Firstly, the phrase which you've used here may have been either; intended to be said as stated or, a simple flippant comment.
Either way be very careful as regards your intentions - employers can take offence (or even action) if they're not kept fully in the picture as regards their employees activities, which are (effectively) related to their work expectations.
I would also venture to suggest that, the most beneficial experience you can gain, will always be at the expense of someone else. In other words, I'd be very tempted to try and work for a firm of accountants, for say five or six years and gain some serious experience of your preferred work life, all the while being paid a salary commensurate with your experience.
If you run, before you can walk, you'll end up being injured.

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By Tim Vane
14th Aug 2017 11:00

Why the heck are ICAEW handing out PCs to people who admit to having ZERO experience of any of the usual skills that will be demanded in public practice?

Shocking.

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By lionofludesch
14th Aug 2017 12:16

They haven't, yet.

He's only applied.

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By Duggimon
14th Aug 2017 11:13

When you start advertising as a practitioner the first thing you will have to do with a new client is have a discussion about what they want from you. In that discussion they will likely have a lot of questions about tax, the systems behind various taxes and just about anything they consider under the remit of an accountant.

These questions vary wildly from client to client and until the meeting is underway you won't know what's coming. How on earth are you going to answer any of it confidently enough to make that potential client an actual client if you have zero experience?

You need to find a job in a firm doing the sort of work you want to do and work there for at least a year or two. While I have no doubt your technical knowledge is at least adequate you have to be familiar with the realities of the profession in order to actually get clients and you won't learn that from a course, nor should you wing it.

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By User deleted
14th Aug 2017 11:40

I have considered working for a practice but I love my current job so would have to be weekend work. I am thinking about contacting some accountants near me to give me some easy work to start off with

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By Jackie0802
14th Aug 2017 11:37

Honestly you need to get some solid practical experience under your belt before embarking on a role where clients will be relying on your expertise.
Giving a waiver that you lack experience will not absolve you from liability if you make costly mistakes, nor will working for nothing.
Peoples money, business and your livelihood are not things you should be leaving to luck or chance. Stop looking for shortcuts, even fully qualified does not give you the experience and knowledge you need to take responsibility for peoples financial well-being.

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By User deleted
14th Aug 2017 11:51

thank you for the advice. I am not looking for a shortcut. I am not looking to take on complex clients like a small/medium practice would have. What I had in mind was charging none to a little to do your most basic accounting/tax return and I would make sure it is correct. of course I am not giving business advise or claiming to save them the most money

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By Cheshire
14th Aug 2017 11:51

Lion is abolsutely correct. Surely one of your work colleagues (or their pals) works in the Bank's business, commercial, corporate, treasury, property, structured finance divisions (I could go on) who could approach one of the many Accountants who look after the hundreds of thousands of business customers. You need to seek out one of the Relationship managers who look at SME businesses. Some of the Bank positively encourage such cross pollination and do long secondments.

(Posted before reading the rest of the responses)

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By User deleted
14th Aug 2017 11:57

So I summarised that most of the advice here is saying I need to get some actual work experience working in a practice.

I think I will offer to help out some local accountants and then at least I am not dealing with clients directly. After I do a few tax returns I will probably get the hang of it I hope.

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By Wanderer
14th Aug 2017 12:08

Dw4518 wrote:

After I do a few tax returns I will probably get the hang of it I hope.

A few!!?? After you've done several hundred tax returns you will only just be scraping the surface.
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By Duggimon
14th Aug 2017 12:08

A little bit of weekend work helping out local accountants does not equate to the practical experience you need to work on your own in practice.

Not only will you not know enough, you won't know what it is you don't know which leaves you no way of improving the areas you need to. You need to have done enough work to know the various circumstances you're likely to come across in practice and to have experience in dealing with them. Doing a little bit pro bono evenings and weekends just won't cut it.

Either you like your job so much you should stick with it or it's not where your future lies and you should pursue your new goal wholeheartedly and move into practice full time, as an employee first, I can't see an in between solution being effective.

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By Cheshire
14th Aug 2017 12:10

Without meaning to sound negative - how will you persuade Accountants to give you work to do at weekends? They cannot supervise you easily, most do not like to train up others when there is an obvious jumping ship scenario, plus what do they get out of it. Easy to see what you do, but less so them. Ive seen countless folk try to get a one day a week role, even offering services for free, but the only way such an employer can really get payback from the amount of time needed to be invested in you, is by you working for them properly. So as I see it - its either jump ship from your day job to do a couple of years or the secondment option. Happy to stand corrected of course by the others who have probably got a lot more experience of this that I have. Not saying its impossible, just not so easy as it sounds.

That said - good luck with it and I hope you find someone who can take you on under their wing.

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By Vaughan Blake1
14th Aug 2017 12:57

"After I do a few tax returns I will probably get the hang of it I hope".

If you truly believe this then you are seriously deluded!

Please read my other post.

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By User deleted
14th Aug 2017 12:28

I can understand everyone's concern but I have seen others start up freshly qualified (no industry experience) and managed to do fine, so I think as long as I am honest - I either can do something or I can't, and the client can make a choice to go elsewhere.
Working full time in practice is not an option due to my current job. The local accountants would be getting a cheap/free part time helping hand, who is very unlikely to be a serious competitor. So in my opinion that's a win win situation.

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By lionofludesch
14th Aug 2017 13:13

Dw4518 wrote:

I can understand everyone's concern but I have seen others start up freshly qualified (no industry experience) and managed to do fine....

Freshly qualifed?

I had to do two years' post qualification experience with a practising firm before I got my practising certificate. Have the ICAEW dropped their standards since them?

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By User deleted
14th Aug 2017 12:33

Or perhaps I can just start out offering bookkeeping services? double entry bookkeeping - don't need training for that!
Even accounts preparation should be doable for me. I'm just not confident with tax returns, having waded through pages of CT600 last night

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By stepurhan
14th Aug 2017 15:09

Dw4518 wrote:

Or perhaps I can just start out offering bookkeeping services? double entry bookkeeping - don't need training for that!
Even accounts preparation should be doable for me. I'm just not confident with tax returns, having waded through pages of CT600 last night


You could start out offering book-keeping services. However, unless you have done any actual book-keeping, you might find that actually you do need training for it. At least if you want to do it well that is.

Same goes for statutory accounts preparation. That's even without considering whether you are actually allowed to do them at all without resigning your qualification. Professional bodies issue practicing certificates for a reason and it isn't just to lend an air of respectability to what you are doing already.

In case your next statement is "I just won't mention I'm ICAEW then" I think you'll find that isn't good enough.

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By User deleted
14th Aug 2017 15:14

I do have experience bookkeeping and accounts prep so should have no problem getting the certificate.

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By justsotax
14th Aug 2017 12:41

#deluded....(isn't it hastag that the kids use these days...?)

Do yourself a favour...get some proper training in the area before you start out. Would you entrust getting your car serviced by someone who had no real experience but was willing to do it for free. If you do want to earn some money on the side start at the appropriate level....bookkeeping maybe more appropriate or something.

Its not to say you cannot do it...but think about the poor sods who you are going to use to practice on unsupervised. Have a bit of respect both for yourself, the services you are offering and your clients.

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By Vaughan Blake1
14th Aug 2017 12:54

Being blunt, I think that you fundamentally underestimate the complexity of "basic tax and accounts compliance".

Odd bits of weekend work doing basic tax returns will only qualify you as a tax junior, doing basic tax returns.

On the basis that 99% of practices now use some form of software, how will you be able to do this weekend work? The only way is to get a job in a SME practice for at least two years, five would be better. Getting the CIOT qualification during this time would be a huge advantage.

Before you start charging for your time, you need to be happy with, income tax (for both unincorporated businesses and individuals), capital gains tax, corporation tax, national insurance, VAT, payroll, inheritance tax, setting up and using HMRC online systems, pension rules.

Then as you are supporting Ltd companies you will have to be up to speed on all the new FRS stuff, Auto enrolment, CIS, company secretarial.

You will also need a working knowledge of things like social security benefits, WFTC, employment law, SDLT.

You will also be running your own business for the first time and trying to build it up, so marketing to SMEs will be fundamental to your success. Clients usually ask for fixed fees, this is an art form in itself, if you are unsure of what is needed you will stand no chance at getting it right. Oh, and money laundering procedures, client accounts. CPD and all the other fun that comes along.

I suspect that at the moment you don't even know what you don't know!

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By SteveHa
14th Aug 2017 13:05

There is no such thing in practice as a client who only has simple tax affairs. Just about everyone will, at some point, throw you a curve ball, and you have to have the confidence to be able to respond to it, or at least know where the answers are.

Remember, there are 19,500 pages to the UK tax code. You can't operate on a tiny subset of that.

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Caroline
By accountantccole
14th Aug 2017 13:16

I've been in practice all my adult life and taking the leap to going on my own was still a massive decision.
I'm lucky to have built up a support network of acquaintances I can bounce technical queries off, but also subscribe to helplines. Half the battle is recognising that there is an issue that you need to look into. I trained in the audit department of a large firm and wasn't allowed to do tax at all, so put myself through ATT to get back up to speed. Practice is so different to exams where there is usually a clear black or white position, we have so many shades of grey we could write an erotic novel!
If you want to "dabble", bookkeeping would be the place to start but I would be careful overselling your abilities as a qualified Accountant.
Most of the people on here will have picked up a client from a fellow "Accountant" where it is clear that they were out of date or completely inexperienced and it is the clients who have suffered as a result.

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By User deleted
14th Aug 2017 15:07

thanks for the advice, especially about the helpline

I am more than happy to study books and the internet to learn what I don't know. The info must be somewhere (other than X number of years working in a practice)

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By Duggimon
14th Aug 2017 14:17

You've come in asking for tips and guidance and outlined your basic plan. Everyone has told you your basic plan is a bad idea, that it won't work and why it won't work and has given you alternative advice.

Yet here we are 33 replies in and you still believe your original plan is the way to go. Why did you bother asking for help?

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By User deleted
14th Aug 2017 15:00

I am heeding everyone's advice and going to start offering bookkeeping, VAT and other easy services, and offer to help them on the tax return or send it onto their accountant. I have seen someone do this and they had 50 clients within a year.

Those people who are telling me to work in practice to get experience - it's not that I don't want to listen to their advice, but I can't! I have a great job that I love and my employer is amazing - of course I am not giving it up. While I am paid very well for not doing much, it's precisely this reason that I want to do something on the side. I want to engage my brain and learn something.

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By User deleted
14th Aug 2017 15:07

"Those people who are telling me to work in practice to get experience - it's not that I don't want to listen to their advice, but I can't! I have a great job that I love and my employer is amazing - of course I am not giving it up".

So, what you are effectively saying is that you want your cake and eat it? I'd guess that, if you're ACA qualified, you will need a practicing certificate and, to achieve that, you will need to demonstrate some form of experience in the field?

I'd hate to say "I told you so". However, with the tone and attitude which I've seen on here today, I can honestly see this ending in tears.

I wish you luck. I think you're going to need a shed load.

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By User deleted
14th Aug 2017 15:10

It's a clear trade off - I spend more time at work and build up my clients slower. How is this "having my cake and eating it"?

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By Cheshire
14th Aug 2017 15:13

Be careful with the Banks and second jobs - most Banks do not allow it - you should be able to see it in your contract.

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By Vaughan Blake1
14th Aug 2017 15:16

I think that you need to be clear, where you see yourself in the next 5 to 10 years?

Given your circumstances I think your best move would be to enrol on a CIOT course and get the CTA qualification. This would be a good grounding for tax knowledge and engage your brain.

An evening cloud based bookkeeping course would also be time well spent.

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By User deleted
14th Aug 2017 15:27

I will look into a cloud based bookkeeping course, thanks

As for tax my fiancé has the CTA so hopefully he can help me a bit

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By Vaughan Blake1
14th Aug 2017 16:29

The trouble with having to ask someone else is:-

1) You have to realise there is an issue.
2) You have to ask the right question.
3) You have to understand and implement the answer.
4) The person has to be available to contact at any given point, and on the basis most answers come in the form of "it depends on..." you will need to get further details from the client and re-ask the question.

Do yourself a favour and get your fiancé to help you pass your CTA exams!

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By bernard michael
14th Aug 2017 14:24

What you haven't addressed is why would any prospective client employ you to do their tax returns when you obviously don't know what you are doing
The fact you are free should make them run a mile

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By lionofludesch
14th Aug 2017 14:33

bernard michael wrote:

What you haven't addressed is why would any prospective client employ you to do their tax returns when you obviously don't know what you are doing
The fact you are free should make them run a mile

I'm not so sure, bernard.

Plenty of clients don't understand what we do and the chances of HMRC discovering an error are so slim that the client will never know the difference.

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By User deleted
14th Aug 2017 15:04

I am targeting the startups. why do it themselves when they can hire me to do it for cheaper than other accountants? It's still better than them doing it themselves, I am confident I at least more than they do

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By Vaughan Blake1
14th Aug 2017 16:05

One minute it is simple tax returns that you want to do, the next it is start ups!

Start ups are not the easy option and are potentially more complex than ongoing businesses! You will be advising on the most suitable and tax efficient trading medium, VAT schemes and registration, national isuranceimpact on WFTC/Universal credit, payroll, AE, capital allowances, the niceties of whether expenditure is capital or revenue. It is also helpful to have some idea about HR issues, start up grants, licencing requirements in particular trades, insurance, etc so at least you can point the client in the right direction.

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By Matrix
14th Aug 2017 14:34

You will earn much more money through working in financial services so stick with that unless you really want the flexibility and independence gained from working for yourself in the long term.

Running costs estimated at £2k pa, you would have to do 10 tax returns at £200 each just to cover these costs. I just don't see the point unless you really have no hobbies and nothing to do at the weekend and have a strange attitude to risk.

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Red Leader
By Red Leader
14th Aug 2017 15:16

Hands up, who predicted this thread would turn out like this? Sorry, too many hands, I can't count that high.

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By User deleted
14th Aug 2017 15:24

LOL! I am surprised by the negativity but I can understand the sentiment, all you lot with established practices and there's me wanting to "learn on the job"

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