Tax help with a side hustle

How to put side hustle into sipp to reduce tax bill to 0

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Hi wondering if anyone can help me. I’m never finding any clear answers on the internet and I’ve even spoke to a few accountants who also couldn’t help or didn’t understand my goal here.

Basically I have a full time job where I am in the 40% tax bracket. I did a one off job for a friends company where I was paid 15k. This is of course untaxed 

Im looking for the most tax efficient way to handle this money, if I I was just taking it I’d loose 40% as tax. Reading id also have to pay ni of class 2 and 4. Is this right? 

I was also reading I can put 15k into my sipp. So save 100% tax? But then I’d end up with 25% topped up automatically, I’d owe this 25% back?

Also reading I could put 80% of this 15k into a sipp and I’d end up with the 25% top up so I’d have the full 15k in my sipp. I’d also have 25% left in cash to pay back the tax they topped me up by. 

 Really not sure how to proceed. 

I tried to do a self assessment on hmrc website emulating this. If I put the whole 15k in I’d assume my bill would be ni plus the 25% top up they gave me. I would have put all the 15k into the sipp so I’d have to use money from my paye job to cover the 25% top up. The bill I’m given is less that this 25% top up though. So I’m confused with the maths 

If I put 80% of the 15k into my sipp. It gets a 25% top up. Meaning I’d have the full 15k in my sipp. My thinking is with the 20% left over I can use this to pay my tax bill plus ni. However my tax bill is even higher than if i put my whole amount of the 15k in to the sipp. 

None of the numbers make sense. Ideally I’d just get my paye income and the side hustle income just goes into my sipp with no tax at all. 

Am I mis understanding my options here? 

 

Replies (46)

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By Yellowman
03rd Jun 2024 16:31

With that £15k you could pay an accountant to give you some advice.

Thanks (6)
Replying to Yellowman:
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By crabbyhelp
03rd Jun 2024 16:53

Yellowman wrote:

With that £15k you could pay an accountant to give you some advice.

Not the most constructive reply, I'm all for paying an accountant but as mentioned i've spoken to a few but not had anything useful from them or they are not understanding what i'm trying to do. So id love to get some clarification on whats I want is actually possible and get the right accountant. I use one a few years back who messed up and i had to call hmrc myself to resolve.

Thanks (0)
panda ketteringUK
By ketteringUK
03rd Jun 2024 16:35

I fail to see any justification for helping you due to the fact that you can clearly afford paying a fee of circa £500 for a tax return along with an hour of advice included.

Not sure how could you enter income from current tax year to HMRC portal as you can only do SATR for 5/4/24 or prior years. If the income was received before 5/4/24 then the train has left the station (in 99% of cases).

Is your sector IT or Marketing?

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Replying to ketteringUK:
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By crabbyhelp
03rd Jun 2024 16:58

ketteringUK wrote:

I fail to see any justification for helping you due to the fact that you can clearly afford paying a fee of circa £500 for a tax return along with an hour of advice included.

Not sure how could you enter income from current tax year to HMRC portal as you can only do SATR for 5/4/24 or prior years. If the income was received before 5/4/24 then the train has left the station (in 99% of cases).

Is your sector IT or Marketing?

As mentioned, i'm struggling to find the right accountant. I will pay for one which is going to help me and understand my ask. I need to understand it too though so i dont get wrong advice. Ive been stung a few years back back a bad accountant and also spoke to a few already that clearly dont get it or dont really understand what i want.

I was using hmrc website to input this years numbers into 23/24 to emulate the tax outcome.

Im a illustrator. First time i've done anything of this caliber before thought.

Thanks (0)
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By cbp99
03rd Jun 2024 17:03

Seems a fairly straightforward case for a competent accountant.

Thanks (1)
Replying to cbp99:
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By crabbyhelp
03rd Jun 2024 17:05

cbp99 wrote:

Seems a fairly straightforward case for a competent accountant.

You would think so. Seem most are not. Ive spoken to 5 so far also asked on the internet with no clear answers.

Maybe what i need isnt possible.

Thanks (0)
Replying to crabbyhelp:
panda ketteringUK
By ketteringUK
03rd Jun 2024 17:25

Due to the AML, KYC and PI no reputable accountant will give you an advice via an initial cold call. You need to ask for a paid meeting, bring your documents so they can open a file and LEO for you to sign.
Only at that point you'll have a chance to discuss your tax affairs.

Many firms will not be interested as often it's not worth the hassle for a one-off client unless the fee agreed is worth the time spent.

Thanks (0)
Replying to crabbyhelp:
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By Truthsayer
03rd Jun 2024 17:30

'Ive spoken to 5 so far'

How about actually ENGAGING one, rather than merely speaking to many?

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Replying to Truthsayer:
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By crabbyhelp
03rd Jun 2024 17:42

Truthsayer wrote:

'Ive spoken to 5 so far'

How about actually ENGAGING one, rather than merely speaking to many?

Ive engaged a few. I dont think what i need is possible.

Thanks (0)
Replying to crabbyhelp:
By Ruddles
03rd Jun 2024 17:32

If you asked those 5 accountants exactly the same question that you have asked here then it’s no surprise that you haven’t had any clear answers. Your post makes very little sense. What is the 25% that you keep saying will be asked for back?

However my tax bill is even higher than if i put my whole amount of the 15k in to the sipp.

The more you pay into a pension the greater the tax relief. Don’t try and tell me that none of the 5 accountants you spoke to weren’t aware of that.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Ruddles:
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By crabbyhelp
03rd Jun 2024 17:54

Ruddles wrote:

If you asked those 5 accountants exactly the same question that you have asked here then it’s no surprise that you haven’t had any clear answers. Your post makes very little sense. What is the 25% that you keep saying will be asked for back?

However my tax bill is even higher than if i put my whole amount of the 15k in to the sipp.

The more you pay into a pension the greater the tax relief. Don’t try and tell me that none of the 5 accountants you spoke to weren’t aware of that.

Maybe im not explaining well enough. Out of the 5+ ive spoken to, most are just saying if i put money into my sipp i get 25% relief and then can claim 20% back additional. The money is untaxed though so its confusing to me.

Yes the more i put into a pension the greater the tax relief. Someone mentioned my tax band get adjusted but the numbers don't seem to add up.

Thanks (0)
Replying to crabbyhelp:
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By Leywood
03rd Jun 2024 17:35

Accountants will not give you free advice.

You need to go through the engagement process.

Doesn’t sound like you’ve chosen well with your existing Accountant if they can’t answer your questions.

Pop find an accountant in your search engine and follow it with ACCA or ICAEW.

Or try find a tax advisor.

This forum is not for members of the public looking for free Accountancy and tax advise. Plus a word of warning, never tax tax advice from HMRC. Ever!

Thanks (2)
Replying to Leywood:
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By crabbyhelp
03rd Jun 2024 17:44

Leywood wrote:

Accountants will not give you free advice.

You need to go through the engagement process.

Doesn’t sound like you’ve chosen well with your existing Accountant if they can’t answer your questions.

Pop find an accountant in your search engine and follow it with ACCA or ICAEW.

Or try find a tax advisor.

This forum is not for members of the public looking for free Accountancy and tax advise. Plus a word of warning, never tax tax advice from HMRC. Ever!

+1

Will take your advice! Thanks for the help! Ive posted in the wrong place it seems!

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Replying to crabbyhelp:
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By Paul Crowley
03rd Jun 2024 17:44

Asked on the internet?
You could not even be bothered to speak to any of them?

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Replying to Paul Crowley:
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By crabbyhelp
03rd Jun 2024 17:55

Paul Crowley wrote:

Asked on the internet?
You could not even be bothered to speak to any of them?

Ive asked on the internet, over phone calls and have a in person meeting in a few days. I hope the in person with be fruitful.

Thanks (1)
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By Londonacc
03rd Jun 2024 17:32

Not buying you have engaged an accountant. This is pretty basic stuff.

Thanks (2)
Replying to Londonacc:
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By crabbyhelp
03rd Jun 2024 17:46

Londonacc wrote:

Not buying you have engaged an accountant. This is pretty basic stuff.

I can list them, if need be? Its not basic stuff either.

Thanks (0)
Replying to crabbyhelp:
By Ruddles
03rd Jun 2024 17:50

crabbyhelp wrote:

Its not basic stuff either.


Yes it is. Unless the question that you wanted to ask is something quite different
Thanks (1)
Replying to Ruddles:
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By crabbyhelp
03rd Jun 2024 17:58

Ruddles wrote:

crabbyhelp wrote:

Its not basic stuff either.

Yes it is. Unless the question that you wanted to ask is something quite different

It doesn't seem straight forward or simple. I think someone would have replied with a clear answer instead of these pass aggressive replies.

Someone pointed out im asking in the wrong place. I understand that now

Thanks (1)
Replying to Ruddles:
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By Paul Crowley
03rd Jun 2024 20:53

+1

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By Paul Crowley
03rd Jun 2024 17:40

Do not understand what the problem is.
15K received.Tax would be 40%
Pay 12K into pension net of tax, 3K cash held for tax
Enter the pension on tax return, Basic rate band increased by £15K
Net result is HMRC wanting tax at 20% being the 3K you held back from pension.
Get an accountant to do the return and he will either enter expenses or claim the trading allowance. The savings in tax would probably be more than the fee.
NI is complicated but, but chances are that it is just 2% of the profit as you are probably over the normal NI limit.
Took me longer to type the words than it took to figure out the problem.
My guess is that you did not have a meeting with a real accountant, you tried the on-line monkeys. You get what you pay for.

Thanks (5)
Replying to Paul Crowley:
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By crabbyhelp
03rd Jun 2024 18:05

Paul Crowley wrote:

Do not understand what the problem is.
15K received.Tax would be 40%
Pay 12K into pension net of tax, 3K cash held for tax
Enter the pension on tax return, Basic rate band increased by £15K
Net result is HMRC wanting tax at 20% being the 3K you held back from pension.
Get an accountant to do the return and he will either enter expenses or claim the trading allowance. The savings in tax would probably be more than the fee.
NI is complicated but, but chances are that it is just 2% of the profit as you are probably over the normal NI limit.
Took me longer to type the words than it took to figure out the problem.
My guess is that you did not have a meeting with a real accountant, you tried the on-line monkeys. You get what you pay for.

Really appreciate this reply Paul! This is how i understand it.Its strange my old accountant suggested throwing all the 15k into my sipp.

Ive tried to input these numbers into hmrc website and it just returns more than the 20% though. Id expect a tax bill of the 3k (20% that i kept in cash) plus ni.

However the amount is higher that i expect. I assume hmrc as taxing the 3k.

Also if i put all in the 15k into a sipp its is smaller than i expected. But i have to pay the tax bill from my full time job.

Thanks (0)
Replying to crabbyhelp:
By Ruddles
03rd Jun 2024 18:55

crabbyhelp wrote:

Ive tried to input these numbers into hmrc website and it just returns more than the 20% though. Id expect a tax bill of the 3k (20% that i kept in cash) plus ni.

However the amount is higher that i expect. I assume hmrc as taxing the 3k.

I assume it’s more likely to be a case of GIGO.

Thanks (2)
Replying to Ruddles:
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By crabbyhelp
03rd Jun 2024 19:13

Ruddles wrote:

crabbyhelp wrote:

Ive tried to input these numbers into hmrc website and it just returns more than the 20% though. Id expect a tax bill of the 3k (20% that i kept in cash) plus ni.

However the amount is higher that i expect. I assume hmrc as taxing the 3k.

I assume it’s more likely to be a case of GIGO.

Wonderful attitude

Thanks (1)
Replying to crabbyhelp:
By Ruddles
03rd Jun 2024 19:47

Sorry but that’s the best advice you’re going to get (from me) for free. Point is that if you have correctly entered all relevant information you will have a tax liability (excluding NI) of £3k. If you’re getting a different figure you’re doing something wrong. I’m not going to waste my time trying to guess what.

Thanks (0)
Replying to crabbyhelp:
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By Paul Crowley
03rd Jun 2024 21:04

Start again with no self-employment and no pension.
That will tell you the tax you already owe BEFORE any of the changes.

There is a lot of pernickety stuff with tax for earlier years getting thrown two years down the line if you look to get tax liabilities coded.
Benefits in kind and salary sacrifices can mess it all up.
Then add in the need to check the workplace pension to figure out whether it is net or gross, only one of which needs an extra entry on the return.
Nearly forgot, other items like gift aid, dividends and interest.

Thanks (2)
Replying to Paul Crowley:
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By Paul Crowley
03rd Jun 2024 22:19

Forgot
Tax underpayments being coded

Thanks (1)
Replying to Paul Crowley:
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By crabbyhelp
03rd Jun 2024 18:05

Paul Crowley wrote:

Do not understand what the problem is.
15K received.Tax would be 40%
Pay 12K into pension net of tax, 3K cash held for tax
Enter the pension on tax return, Basic rate band increased by £15K
Net result is HMRC wanting tax at 20% being the 3K you held back from pension.
Get an accountant to do the return and he will either enter expenses or claim the trading allowance. The savings in tax would probably be more than the fee.
NI is complicated but, but chances are that it is just 2% of the profit as you are probably over the normal NI limit.
Took me longer to type the words than it took to figure out the problem.
My guess is that you did not have a meeting with a real accountant, you tried the on-line monkeys. You get what you pay for.

Really appreciate this reply Paul! This is how i understand it.Its strange my old accountant suggested throwing all the 15k into my sipp.

Ive tried to input these numbers into hmrc website and it just returns more than the 20% though. Id expect a tax bill of the 3k (20% that i kept in cash) plus ni.

However the amount is higher that i expect. I assume hmrc as taxing the 3k.

Also if i put all in the 15k into a sipp its is smaller than i expected. But i have to pay the tax bill from my full time job.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Paul Crowley:
the sea otter
By memyself-eye
03rd Jun 2024 18:07

You gave him more rope than he needed to hang himself - I would just have said 'watch the Jungle Book'

Loads of monkeys there!

Thanks (0)
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By kim.shaw-and-co.com
03rd Jun 2024 18:57

crabbyhelp wrote:

Paul Crowley wrote:

Do not understand what the problem is.
15K received.Tax would be 40%
Pay 12K into pension net of tax, 3K cash held for tax
Enter the pension on tax return, Basic rate band increased by £15K
Net result is HMRC wanting tax at 20% being the 3K you held back from pension.
Get an accountant to do the return and he will either enter expenses or claim the trading allowance. The savings in tax would probably be more than the fee.
NI is complicated but, but chances are that it is just 2% of the profit as you are probably over the normal NI limit.
Took me longer to type the words than it took to figure out the problem.
My guess is that you did not have a meeting with a real accountant, you tried the on-line monkeys. You get what you pay for.

Really appreciate this reply Paul! This is how i understand it.Its strange my old accountant suggested throwing all the 15k into my sipp.

Ive tried to input these numbers into hmrc website and it just returns more than the 20% though. Id expect a tax bill of the 3k (20% that i kept in cash) plus ni.

However the amount is higher that i expect. I assume hmrc as taxing the 3k.

Also if i put all in the 15k into a sipp its is smaller than i expected. But i have to pay the tax bill from my full time job.

It really is very straightforward to set this up to work optimally for the purposes you have outlined if you know what you are doing and how it works.

However, as others have indicated it is something you ought to have an accountant do for you (along with submitting the relevant tax return). If you've consulted an on-line accountant and got nothing sensible back, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

Once you formally engage an accountant on a paid basis to prepare your self assessment return, they will (hopefully !) :

- claim any relief you are owed on your self-employed income

- confirm the amount of contribution required to eliminate tax on self-employed earnings based on the type of SIPP you hold, and ensure this is paid in the correct period

- know how to make the relevant entries in their third party tax return software to secure you the associated relief on the contribution made to a 'relief at source' scheme which will fall due as a result of the relevant contribution paid to the SIPP

- sort out your Class 4 NI position so that it is capped at the additional rate on any self-employed earnings in the Return filed for you, and confirm the amount of NI you will need to set aside from your cash profits

Presumably any employee contributions made to a workplace pension are already fully relieved through payroll against your gross employment income ?

Thanks (1)
Replying to kim.shaw-and-co.com:
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By crabbyhelp
03rd Jun 2024 19:52

kim.shaw-and-co.com wrote:

crabbyhelp wrote:

Paul Crowley wrote:

Do not understand what the problem is.
15K received.Tax would be 40%
Pay 12K into pension net of tax, 3K cash held for tax
Enter the pension on tax return, Basic rate band increased by £15K
Net result is HMRC wanting tax at 20% being the 3K you held back from pension.
Get an accountant to do the return and he will either enter expenses or claim the trading allowance. The savings in tax would probably be more than the fee.
NI is complicated but, but chances are that it is just 2% of the profit as you are probably over the normal NI limit.
Took me longer to type the words than it took to figure out the problem.
My guess is that you did not have a meeting with a real accountant, you tried the on-line monkeys. You get what you pay for.

Really appreciate this reply Paul! This is how i understand it.Its strange my old accountant suggested throwing all the 15k into my sipp.

Ive tried to input these numbers into hmrc website and it just returns more than the 20% though. Id expect a tax bill of the 3k (20% that i kept in cash) plus ni.

However the amount is higher that i expect. I assume hmrc as taxing the 3k.

Also if i put all in the 15k into a sipp its is smaller than i expected. But i have to pay the tax bill from my full time job.

It really is very straightforward to set this up to work optimally for the purposes you have outlined if you know what you are doing and how it works.

However, as others have indicated it is something you ought to have an accountant do for you (along with submitting the relevant tax return). If you've consulted an on-line accountant and got nothing sensible back, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

Once you formally engage an accountant on a paid basis to prepare your self assessment return, they will (hopefully !) :

- claim any relief you are owed on your self-employed income

- confirm the amount of contribution required to eliminate tax on self-employed earnings based on the type of SIPP you hold, and ensure this is paid in the correct period

- know how to make the relevant entries in their third party tax return software to secure you the associated relief on the contribution made to a 'relief at source' scheme which will fall due as a result of the relevant contribution paid to the SIPP

- sort out your Class 4 NI position so that it is capped at the additional rate on any self-employed earnings in the Return filed for you, and confirm the amount of NI you will need to set aside from your cash profits

Presumably any employee contributions made to a workplace pension are already fully relieved through payroll against your gross employment income ?

This is what i would expect!

My old accountant gave me this example

'In a normal year if your self employment was say £6000

Pension would be £6000 & £1500 claimed by pension company via HMRC = £7500 in pension pot

£7500 extra added to basic rate tax band

£6000 income x 20% = 1200 tax to pay

Less £1500 additional part of band left x 20% = £300

So £1200 - £300 = £900 tax bill'

Does this seem correct?

He forgot to add the 1k trading allowance, i had 0 expenses and i wanted to avoid the complication of adding them. I had to call hmrc to fix it. I paid him £200 + vat and his mistake would have cost more than that.

This year id love to use more competent accountant but make sure i understand whats going on.

Quote:

Presumably any employee contributions made to a workplace pension are already fully relieved through payroll against your gross employment income ?

My paye income is done via salary sacrifice. So i think i dont have to worry about this.

Im going to post the emulated self assessment I have that im trying to work out the figures/maths.

The first is if i put all the 15k into my sipp.
The out come seems like im not paying enough tax. Id expect to pay 25% that the sipp was topped up by back to hmrc + ni out of my normal wage.
https://tinypic.host/images/2024/06/03/help.png

This is if i put 80% in and the tax seems too high? Id expect to pay 25% that the sipp was topped up by back to hmrc with the side hustle cash left over + ni out of my normal wage.
https://tinypic.host/images/2024/06/03/help2.png

Not sure if that makes sense? :/

Thanks (0)
By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
03rd Jun 2024 18:57

itsd simple if you know what you are doing. Big "IF" mind. Quite a bit of training to get there.

Did a quote today for a £250k income chap, one let property. Was told £375+VAT for too much. After tax relief that is £250. The mind boogles how that is not good value. Loads of room to save somone like that money. Not least it was 50/50 with his non-tax paying wife......but we didnt get that far.

I hope that enjoy their bookkeeper led return for £150. And paying £2k a year in uncessary taxation. Muppet.

Thanks (3)
Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
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By Paul Crowley
03rd Jun 2024 21:16

I have a few clients that way inclined.
They want the extra clever stuff but not to pay anything for it
Hence wife gets a small wage with no pension contribution because they do not want to pay to get a PAYE scheme in place.
Another chose to deregister despite all clients being VAT registered, because MTD was difficult. My offer was a tiny quarterly fee, but the cost would, on a quarterly basis, be reduced to the input VAT claimed if lower than my fee.
Another chose not to have a company, despite forthcoming cessation of trade (a risky trade that needs insurance, and on which he has claimed more than once recently), because the fee would increase by £400 pa. He will need run off insurance that would be higher than the total fees.

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Replying to Paul Crowley:
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By kim.shaw-and-co.com
03rd Jun 2024 23:39

Paul Crowley wrote:

He will need run off insurance that would be higher than the total fees.

Some people seem happy to throw money at insurance or loan-related fees and charges but ask them to pay for a professional service and it's like asking them to part with the Crown Jewels ... it's a very strange perception of value, linked to whether they actually see or feel by way of cash changing hands paying a bill.

Having just been done for about £4.5k in labour costs for a day's installation of a new boiler system, four guys on site or not the double standards and denigration of value of professional services truly blows my mind.

Thanks (2)
Replying to kim.shaw-and-co.com:
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By FactChecker
04th Jun 2024 01:02

Wow, hope that was a massive Air Source Heat Pump 'boiler' and a first-time installation necessitating loads of new runs and complex re-connections?

My new Gas boiler (couldn't afford the heat pump option) which is the largest available for domestic settings but was pretty much a swap out/in job (plus of course loads of testing & tuning) only required my trusty Gas Safe plumber on his own - for which the labour charge was nearer £500 for the just over 1/2 day.
And this is in fairly central London (nominally £110/hour + VAT but always gives me a discount for long service)!

Thanks (2)
Replying to FactChecker:
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By kim.shaw-and-co.com
04th Jun 2024 01:25

FactChecker wrote:

Wow, hope that was a massive Air Source Heat Pump 'boiler' and a first-time installation necessitating loads of new runs and complex re-connections?

My new Gas boiler (couldn't afford the heat pump option) which is the largest available for domestic settings but was pretty much a swap out/in job (plus of course loads of testing & tuning) only required my trusty Gas Safe plumber on his own - for which the labour charge was nearer £500 for the just over 1/2 day.
And this is in fairly central London (nominally £110/hour + VAT but always gives me a discount for long service)!

Sadly not - it was a condensing oil burner because we've no mains gas out here in the sticks ! The old one was over 30 years young when its water jacket failed (Victorian-style, the pumps remained serviceable). Required new chimney flue/cowl, and some drilling of holes in the wall etc. for ventilation / condensate discharge etc.

The boiler and parts were maybe £1,800 or so at a guess on top so it's mainly labour. Another £600 for the electrician the next day for 2 hours (all parts left by the installers). 7 flipping grand it was quite a shock to be honest. It's the problem getting anything done when there's a cartel-like supply of artisans who drive anyone from out of town out of the area and no proper competition.

Consolation is a 10 year parts and labour guarantee (ostensibly) and Made in UK. Kick in the nuts is that the oil consumption saving is marginal based on experience to date and the ready-made dry-anything-in-3-hours room from the heat of the old one is consigned to the history books.

The firm who came in have services the old boiler for 30 years. Unfortunately the "son" has taken over the business recently and suffice to say doesn't have the same moral compass as his father and grandfather before him. Suffice to say the blatent racketeering has meant any prospects of recommending the firm to others went up in smoke with the greed ....

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Replying to kim.shaw-and-co.com:
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By FactChecker
04th Jun 2024 11:44

You have my sympathy - which unfortunately is not a recognised currency with which to pay these short-term graspers.
I'm gobsmacked all over again by "£600 for the electrician the next day for 2 hours" - unless you live a long way from the rest of civilisation (like the Orkneys) and it takes the electrician 3 hours each way on top just to visit you. I pay £120/hour tops in central/west London (which is a massive increase on just a couple of years ago).

The problem is accelerated, as you mentioned, when the next generation takes over the family business. 30 years ago my problem was not sounding patronising when trying to get 'grandad' (sent to fit kitchen units with aid of listless kid) to pace himself ... 10 years ago prices went up but so did speed (as grandad's children took over and were hands-on) ... now prices seem to be be 'think of a number and double it' (decided by grandchildren who supply competent/underpaid technicians from Eastern Europe but are never seen themselves).

Like so many things, where the bottom of the slippery slope is headed is anyone's guess.

Thanks (3)
Replying to FactChecker:
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By kim.shaw-and-co.com
04th Jun 2024 15:19

FactChecker wrote:

You have my sympathy - which unfortunately is not a recognised currency with which to pay these short-term graspers.
I'm gobsmacked all over again by "£600 for the electrician the next day for 2 hours" - unless you live a long way from the rest of civilisation (like the Orkneys) and it takes the electrician 3 hours each way on top just to visit you. I pay £120/hour tops in central/west London (which is a massive increase on just a couple of years ago).

The problem is accelerated, as you mentioned, when the next generation takes over the family business. 30 years ago my problem was not sounding patronising when trying to get 'grandad' (sent to fit kitchen units with aid of listless kid) to pace himself ... 10 years ago prices went up but so did speed (as grandad's children took over and were hands-on) ... now prices seem to be be 'think of a number and double it' (decided by grandchildren who supply competent/underpaid technicians from Eastern Europe but are never seen themselves).

Like so many things, where the bottom of the slippery slope is headed is anyone's guess.

Indeed. Not the Orkneys - rhymes with Heaven and unenviably near to UK's priciest seaside town (or so the latest dubiously crafted statistical index measure in the press would have us believe). They're local enough - in this area anything under 10-15 miles is 'on the doorstep' !

Think of a number and double it is exactly what's happening. Wealthy second-home owners have made it all ten times worse.

The difference around here is that you're not dealing with underpaid technicians from Eastern Europe who are often extremely good at their jobs, you're dealing with locals who have often never lived or worked out of the area (and competence is a major problem especially with plumbers).

The grandchildren, as you say, are hardly seen and seem to want to be paid on top of the mark-up on everyone else in their team. You also get used to paying for 2 men and being one of them yourself just to get someone to come out. It happened in relation to consequential remedial work on this job, and I had to do the same when a new hot water cylinder was installed with new copper in the loft space. Add the direct cost of paying for myself to work on my own job to the opportunity cost of foregone income whilst I did so .... it's ludicrous.

This one had me jibbering ... I spent 3 hours clearing a route for a replacement oil feed pipe with the father (son wouldn't come back) and hauling it along a harling wall - he came back to install it after a leak presented in the original supply pipe shortly after the job was finished and admitted the son shouldn't have sited certain connections inside the house and rerouted them outside.

Curiously, the leak from the old supply pipe into the wall was exactly where a new ventilation hole had been drilled (hmmm... ). The only part of the job we couldn't do was routing the new oil feed pipe under a short stretch of concrete path so it was lying there on the ground through 3 tank fills.

Fast-forward four months, endless stress and and a stand-off over the bill the son finally reluctantly sent two employees in for 2 hours to finish the job the father and I had all but done between us in January. Yes you guessed it ... another £600 bill arrived for that (on top of the original one and the electrician).

I'm at the stage where (coupled with the arrogant attitude and general disrespect you encounter from the younger ones which you have to bite your lip over) I can't face having anyone in to do anything unless there is literally no alternative. Give me a competent Polish workman any day of the month and I'd bite your hand off for them.

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Replying to kim.shaw-and-co.com:
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By Heating_installer
04th Jun 2024 16:14

While I can't comment on the quality /attitude of the work you received or labour rates charged I am afraid you are wildly out of touch with the cost of oil boilers, flues and related parts which bear no relation to mass market gas boilers.
A moderate capacity system boiler from a reputable manufacturer will be circa £2500-3000. A basic through wall low level flue will start at £450 and you can add circa £100 for every additional metre, its not unusual for flue components to cost a similar amount to the boiler as the allowable discharge positions are much more constrained than gas cousins.
A new oil line with filters, fire-valve(s), deaerators, fittings and pipe will not be less than £300 so you're looking at north of 3.5k (trade rate) for the basics before any ancillaries of which there will be many if you are upgrading a 30 year old model to a steamer.
If you think the above is expensive wait till you price (and run) a heat pump, that'll really make your eyes water!!

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Replying to Heating_installer:
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By FactChecker
04th Jun 2024 17:00

Good to hear from you, Simon ... trust all's well.

Although I'll happily bow my head to your far superior knowledge if I'm wrong, the main reasons I didn't even seriously consider the heat pump route (when my gas boiler packed up 18 months ago) wasn't the exorbitant cost of materials (with or without govt subsidy) - but:
a) near impossibility of finding installers who had even a smidgen of knowledge of the technology (particularly amongst the installers rather than their salespeople);
b) the assumption that you would first install a veritable field of solar panels (plus a bank of batteries) just to keep the system running.

I've also since heard that in a large house, whatever the disclaimers say, you would be advised to replace all your radiators (or rip everything out and install underfloor heating) if you want your heat pump to keep you warm in winter.
So the massive bill from the supplied quotation rapidly becomes a need to rebuild quite a lot of your house - which may or may not be ecologically sound, but is not an affordable option for almost anyone.

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Replying to FactChecker:
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By Heating_installer
05th Jun 2024 12:09

Hi Hugo - yes muddling by thanks, likewise I hope!

Briefly because this is drifting wildly off topic:

a) Yes that's all to often the case, to many of my colleagues do things by rote with no real understanding, its a real UK problem and it shows in experiences of kim-shaw and the fact that many manufacturers will not sell their more capable equipment and systems in the UK as the installer base is either not interested or makes a right pigs ear of it with attendant damage to manu reputation.
Further, many of us have had our trousers pulled down too many times by government incentive/finance schemes - they make dealing with HMRC look easy and I for one have lost five figure sums setting up/qualifying for schemes that had no demand, were pulled within months, were flat unworkable and overall had no demand. As such finding an organisation that is taking part in the Boiler Upgrade Scheme is difficult to near impossible before one even considers technical and business competency.
If anyone is looking the HeatGeek organisation is a good place to start - it attracts those with more nouse than average!

b) Agreed - PV every time (I did) if you have an appropriate location.
Battery storage is coming of age and prices are dropping, so well worth consideration if you are not consuming at time of generation and with the eventual common sense alignment of zero rating to storage retrofits in February it's proving popular!
While it will make a small contribution PV output is lowest during peak heating season so not a great match with a heat pump - also 'de facto permitted' PV capacities (4kW) are somewhat short of heat pump demand - assess PV on its own merits against your own consumption versus generation profile.

As regards the consequential improvements for heat pumps:
If you want the BUS grant you have to go full heat pump - no hybrids also you have to meet minimum EPC level (insulation essentially) although (Incredibly and unbelievably) that is due to be dropped.
Basic, inescapable, thermodynamics dictates that the multiplier (COP) of energy input (electrical) to useful harvested heat (into system hot water) output is directly proportional to the difference in temperature between source (air, ground, water) and the output temperature. The reality of this is that for an air source heat pump to achieve anywhere close to running cost parity with gas it needs to achieve a COP of 4 (2.5 for oil) this will necessitate an emitter system that can operate with a flow temperature of circa 35 degC .
Traditional rad systems would be sized for 80 degC, UFH in screed (best case) 45-50 degC so you can see the mismatch!
One can use larger rads for more surface area but this more often than not works out ridiculous sizes.
Fan assisted rads can be okay on paper but 30-35 degC moving air is generally perceived as a cold draft by most.
The best bet is UFH in a flowing anhydrite screed (not some compromise overlay system!) with provision of secondary top up(log burner etc.) for the coldest days.
From marketing to reality most heat pumps with UFH achieve COP iro 2.5-3 over a seasonal cycle (year) so you will pay more for heating energy than a gas boiler.
The kicker is that the 35 operating temperature means a return at 30 (cf trad 80/70 or 75/55 in a well designed condensing boiler system)
ie. half to quarter the energy output from the same quantity of water moved through the emitter therefore, to compensate, one needs to move two to four times as much water therefore bigger pipes and bigger pumps(more electricity) - up come all those lovely hardwood/tiled floors!!!
Hot water - you have to have a hot water cylinder (did you repurpose that space when you installed a combi??) and it will need to be a big capacity as the water in it will only get to just acceptably warm meaning greater proportion of hot in blended outputs (showers) Even with this being the case when the heat pump heats the cylinder it will need to raise its output to a reasonable overhead of the desired tank temperature say 50 deg C to get tank to 45(eventually) COP plummets to 1.2-1.8, reheat times are hours, lets hope you don't have teenagers!!
With a set 45 degC (average somewhat lower) in your Hot water cylinder the temperature is just about perfect for incubation of Legionnaires disease and other pathogens so at least once a week you are going to need an electric immersion (COP 1) to pasteurize the cylinder at 70 degC for an hour, £4-5 each time at current electric rates.
Final point:'
UK domestic properties are almost without exception on single phase electrical supplies - very poor for electric motors generally. UK domestic electrical equipment (fuseboards etc.) in reality caps any one appliance at circa 12kW (12000W/230V=52A) and this type of load is generally only found in instantaneous electric showers.
If we allow that the heat pump will operate at a COP of 3 then this caps the output iro of 36kW - enough for most but not all domestic properties if hot water usage is moderate.
However, the electricity board cable from street to your house is sized on the basis of a few transient demands for this level of current and the average being an order of magnitude less, the upshot being that you cannot draw 12kW of power from your mains supply on anything even close to a continuous basis (cf your gas supply that will sustain a continuous 60kW on a standard meter setup) you will damage the meter and cable and fire is a real risk. Additionally due to the nature of electric motors (particularly on single phase) the number of times an hour that (heat pump) motors can start is restricted - 4 is typical.
Modern inverter drives can mitigate this to some degree but....
If you have an EV to charge as well :-(
You could upgrade your service cable if the street supply has capacity but the cost is eye watering and your standing charge will skyrocket too!
Alternative is thermal storage/buffer tanks and increased space complexity and cost.
The above appears very negative, don't get me wrong as an installer I have nothing against heat pumps in the right situation it's just that that situation is generally purpose designed high budget new build/major refit and not hard to insulate prewar suburbia and Victorian terraces or similar of which such a major part of our housing stock comprises.

Hmm - I seem to have gone on whoops!

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Replying to Heating_installer:
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By FactChecker
05th Jun 2024 16:54

Thanks, that's all super helpful ... just a shame that those messages (the practical and very real issues with which homeowners ought to become acquainted if we are all to have a chance of moving forward - outwith the diet of political soundbites that constitute govt advice/support) are only on an Accounting forum.

It deserves a wider audience - and I will, if that's alright with you, pass a copy onto someone in the ridiculously named DESNZ?

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
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By cinnamint
04th Jun 2024 10:03

Some of us 'bookkeepers' do have a personal tax return qualification.... I know there's a lot of dumbos out there who clearly don't know what they're doing... but there are exceptions.

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By FactChecker
03rd Jun 2024 20:03

Those links to an insecure site should be removed, pronto.

The fact that you need to supply them indicates the problem you're having - which is that you seem more interested in learning (good for you) than in getting the right answer (which is what you pay an accountant to give you).
A public forum isn't going to solve either aspect (at least not with any certainty).

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Replying to FactChecker:
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By FactChecker
03rd Jun 2024 22:22

In case anyone thinks I've finally gone doolally ... my above post refers to one from OP (which contained URL links to images - of what I wasn't prepared to find out) that now seems to have disappeared entirely (OP's post).

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Replying to FactChecker:
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By Paul Crowley
03rd Jun 2024 22:37

It disappeared quite quickly.
I read the comment and looked at all OP postings in vain.

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