The worm that turned?

Time to do something about the MTD ITSA fiasco

Didn't find your answer?

Enough is enough.

As a profession we have put up with all the stupid initiatives heaped on us over the years, but really MTD ITSA is the final straw.

A firm can have hundreds or thousands of tax returns to file annually and currently has between April and January to get them all done, which is barely manageable, but we are used to it and the system works.  

Now we are expected to file them quarterly.  They are not simply 'updates', they are tax returns.  Don't be fooled into thinking any initial concessions to allow estimates, or rubbish to be filed will last.

This is just not feasible.  It will be January every few months.  

What are we supposed to do?  Quadruple our fees?  Quadruple our staff?  (can any firms even manage to recruit anyone at this time?)  Sack 75% of our clients?  Who else would even have capacity to take them on?

This is going to take a wrecking ball to the entire profession and the taxpaying public. We are sleepwalking into an almighty mess and nobody is doing anything about it.

We have heard this week that the professional bodies have written to the Government expressing their 'support' for the proposals but merely urging 'delay'.  Support? Delay?  This thing needs strangling at birth.

I am loathe to say trade union, but is it now time that some sort of professional accountants association was formed that takes a more confrontational approach and loudly and rudely calls out this BS?

Thoughts?

Replies (436)

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Replying to creamdelacream:
neand
By neanderthal
28th Aug 2021 11:01

People working hard to make a living or develp their business dont need a massive additonal red tape burden on their shoulders imposed from civil servants that are out of touch with the real work and all they do is come up with those brilliant ideas on paer to justify their fat salaries! let people focus on their work and then pay half of their profits to them anyway!

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Replying to Winnie Wiggleroom:
By kenny achampong
27th Aug 2021 17:23

What cloud based software have you put all your smallest clients on ? Who has taught them how to use it ? Have they all had to open up business bank accounts ? Who has paid for the software ? A business bank account and Xero will cost them £500 pa, and teaching them and sorting out any mess is going to obviously be a massive hike in our time/cost. If you're earning £10K or £20K pa, you just can't afford that.

I agree with the OP, the MTD returns are going to be pretty similar to doing the normal tax returns using Excel, so it could be 5, 10 or 15 extra returns pa, so saying 4 times the time is a conservative estimate. And with all of them with the same deadlines, it's simply going to be impossible for us to do it.

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Replying to kenny achampong:
By petersaxton
27th Aug 2021 17:41

[quote=kenny achampong]

A business bank account and Xero will cost them £500 pa

Xero would be £5 + VAT per month if a cash book and if they have sales invoices £12 + VAT. That's £72 per year or £172.80. I dont think bank charges are that expensive.

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Replying to petersaxton:
By kenny achampong
28th Aug 2021 10:53

We've just been conned then, we have just switched to Xero, and it is £24 per month + VAT. Client has just switched to Sage on the cloud and thats £30 per month + VAT. How come you only pay £5 ?

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Replying to kenny achampong:
By petersaxton
28th Aug 2021 11:25

kenny achampong wrote:

We've just been conned then, we have just switched to Xero, and it is £24 per month + VAT. Client has just switched to Sage on the cloud and thats £30 per month + VAT. How come you only pay £5 ?


I'm a Xero advisor. That's the price for Non VAT Cash Book. VAT Cash Book is £9. Starter (with invoicing) is soon to be £12.
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Replying to petersaxton:
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By bernard michael
28th Aug 2021 11:38

petersaxton wrote:

kenny achampong wrote:

We've just been conned then, we have just switched to Xero, and it is £24 per month + VAT. Client has just switched to Sage on the cloud and thats £30 per month + VAT. How come you only pay £5 ?

I'm a Xero advisor. That's the price for Non VAT Cash Book. VAT Cash Book is £9. Starter (with invoicing) is soon to be £12.


Is a Xero advisor a Xero salesman under another hat ??
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Replying to bernard michael:
By petersaxton
28th Aug 2021 21:33

No. I like using Xero so I put my clients on Xero if it will benefit them. Some accountants are scared to use accounting software so they avoid it.

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Replying to kenny achampong:
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By SXGuy
27th Aug 2021 22:58

That is the main concern of mine. That they will all have the same deadlines, instead of now when even if all your clients were march/April year ends, you can at least spread it out over the coming months before the end of Jan.

With the change in basis period and them all having the same deadline every 3 months, you lose the flexibility you had.

Some people may think it's wrong to ditch clients but it's quite possible there will be no choice just to keep up and any extra fees you do make will just replace the lost ones.

Don't get me wrong, I plan on tackling this with a positive attitude, but I have to also consider the problems it faces too.

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Replying to SXGuy:
By petersaxton
28th Aug 2021 11:49

Either the accountant does the work for the first reporting period or gets the clients to do some of it. The work can be started on 01/04/23 and finished sometime after 30/06/23 with a deadline of 05/08/23. This gives five months to do the work. This will happen four times a year. Any remaining work can be done over many months but you shouldn't need long. Previously accountants would usually only have a few months to do a lot of their client's work.

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Replying to petersaxton:
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By Hugo Fair
28th Aug 2021 12:19

"This gives five months to do the work" ... is this the accuracy to be expected from Xero or merely all that's required by MTD. You may think of it as a rounding error, but 4 months & 5 days doesn't equal 5 months if you're trying to fit in all the work!
More seriously it doesn't give you all that time anyway ... the clock starts ticking after the END of the period (on 1st July) - or later when you're provided with all the data from that date onwards. And as Winnie has stated, you can't rely on the client.

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Replying to Hugo Fair:
By petersaxton
28th Aug 2021 12:40

Point taken about five months - it is four.
Why does the clock start ticking at the end of the period and not the start?

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Replying to Hugo Fair:
By petersaxton
28th Aug 2021 12:40

Point taken about five months - it is four.
Why does the clock start ticking at the end of the period and not the start?

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Replying to petersaxton:
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By Hugo Fair
28th Aug 2021 14:07

You're quite right that any blunt statement like that has to be based on assumptions - in this particular case mine were as follows:

* I'm not talking about all taxpayers, but the substantial number who currently rely predominantly on paperwork (receipts, bank statements, invoices, daybooks, etc).
* As Winnie admitted "if we asked the clients to do the book-keeping themselves, we would spend longer sorting out the mess each quarter than it would take to do it all ourselves in the first place!"
* If the business only transacts entirely through one bank account AND uses the cash basis for accounting AND has no 'shared' revenue streams AND does not get involved in major stock holdings or capital acquisitions ... then it is just possible that the Agent could rely on a bank feed plus weekly or monthly tidy-ups (which will still usually necessitate a query or two to the client).
* BUT all those constraints/conditions will have excluded a very large number (quite possibly a majority although no-one has the stats) of current clients of an Agent ... meaning the Agent can't rely on client to do the book-keeping but now has to repeat the annual 'chasing exercise' at a much greater frequency (without any certainty of getting what's needed in time).
* Each time the Agent has to 'open' a client's files (whether to check or amend data, or simply to raise another query with client) this is a sunk cost that may appear miniscule - but when repeated many times per quarter for every client will add up to a major chunk of the Agent staff's time.
* In order to minimise that, the only sensible solution is to reduce those checks / queries from daily to say monthly ... although you now have the worst of both worlds (frequent involvement/effort without the 'benefit' of timeliness).
* And whatever frequency you choose, there will be transactions that only arise at the end of the quarter (which is due to become the same quarter for everyone) - almost certainly including uninvoiced deposits and/or materials purchased for next quarter's projects, etc!

So maybe my statement would have been better phrased not as "the clock starts ticking at the end of the period and not the start" ... but as "the clock ticking only picks up speed at the end of the period and not the start".

Either way, the fact (as I see it) is that a LOT more work will need to be carried out each quarter than a 1/4 of the old annual effort ... whether the result is a doubling or trebling etc remains to be seen and will obviously depend on both the client and agent M.O.

And the conclusion? There are several hundred thousand small businesses who don't have the will (and therefore aren't prepared to spend time or money) to comply with this administrative burden - not surprising given that many set up on their own precisely in order to avoid this kind of bureaucracy. If Agents aren't prepared to take the problem away for next-to-free (at least no further increases in costs to the business) - and why should they do that? - then many businesses will either close or move under the radar into the black economy.
For whom this constitutes a win escapes me!

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Replying to Hugo Fair:
By petersaxton
28th Aug 2021 18:11

"many businesses will either close or move under the radar into the black economy."
Businesses are not going to do that. It's simply scaremongering.

I have businesses on Xero already and they may make the odd mistake but I tell them what they did wrong and they dont do it again.

If a client is technologically challenged then they will have to post or deliver all documents to me monthly. I'll scan and explain the bank feeds. It's going to cost them more but they either pay or make the effort themselves. If they want to move to somebody who will do the same for half the price then good luck to both of them.

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Replying to petersaxton:
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By Hugo Fair
28th Aug 2021 19:56

The truth may be scary, but that doesn't make telling it "scaremongering".

Having lived in the same house for nearly 50 years, I know a lot of people in this area ... and during those socially distanced encounters on street corners I've broached the MTD topic with just over 20 of them (who are all retired but now work SE - partly to keep active, partly to be helpful and of course partly for the spending power it gives them). [I should mention that none are clients].

Once they've grasped the key concepts (which were news to all bar one of them), I've asked what they think they'll do as a result.
After discounting the sardonic ("I probably won't be here to care", etc) ... there were 35% who said they stop working (in a couple of cases the suggestion was to continue but stop charging), and 40% who said they'd only take cash then (with 'sc8ew the state' type epithets attached).
[Please note: these are all people who have happily paid taxes for a full working life, often with exemplary records in public service, and regard themselves as law-abiding pillars of the community.]

This is not a statistically reliable survey and obviously only represents a specific segment of the self-employed. But at the least their actions will reduce the tax revenues for this country - and, in some cases, result in a further drain as the reduced income leads to claims on the state (like pension credits etc)!

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Replying to Hugo Fair:
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By Paul Crowley
28th Aug 2021 14:27

Agree completely
In practical terms really just 3 weeks per quarter to get sorted
There are lots of people still on paper statements with varying dates
Not once have I suggested to any client on 31 March
"Get it in tomorrow"
No VAT client ever brings in records quicker than 14 days after quarter end, unless there is a known big refund
The SA dates are of course in the same VAT quarters as most company clients, March et seq

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Replying to Paul Crowley:
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By SXGuy
28th Aug 2021 14:39

Of course the other thing is, when do we fit in the march/April 23 year end accounts when all this is kicking off.

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Replying to SXGuy:
By petersaxton
28th Aug 2021 18:34

"when do we fit in the march/April 23 year end accounts when all this is kicking off."

From April to January like we do usually.

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Replying to petersaxton:
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By Hugo Fair
28th Aug 2021 19:15

... but at the same time (concurrently) as the new Qtly returns. Quarts and pint pots!

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Replying to Hugo Fair:
By petersaxton
28th Aug 2021 20:14

Yes. The year end work is minimal if you are doing the work regularly throughout the year as you should be doing.

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Replying to petersaxton:
ALISK
By atleastisoundknowledgable...
29th Aug 2021 10:42

petersaxton wrote:

Yes. The year end work is minimal if you are doing the work regularly throughout the year as you should be doing.

‘Should’? That’s bit down the the accountant is it - the clients have a fair amount of say in that.

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Replying to atleastisoundknowledgable...:
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By Paul Crowley
02nd Sep 2021 17:15

Bookkeeping is done by clients and bookkeepers
Why would I be doing anything at all?

Edit
Reply to the person you replied to
Why would even a bookkeeper get involved with a landlord with just the one property

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Replying to kenny achampong:
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By Winnie Wiggleroom
28th Aug 2021 06:24

kenny achampong wrote:

What cloud based software have you put all your smallest clients on ? Who has taught them how to use it ? Have they all had to open up business bank accounts ? Who has paid for the software ? A business bank account and Xero will cost them £500 pa, and teaching them and sorting out any mess is going to obviously be a massive hike in our time/cost. If you're earning £10K or £20K pa, you just can't afford that.

I agree with the OP, the MTD returns are going to be pretty similar to doing the normal tax returns using Excel, so it could be 5, 10 or 15 extra returns pa, so saying 4 times the time is a conservative estimate. And with all of them with the same deadlines, it's simply going to be impossible for us to do it.

Well we certainly didnt put them on Xero thats for sure, Sage and QBO for £1, Freeagent for free, Pandle for £2.50, there are lots of options out there so software cost is not an issue, only the clients that really need the Xero functionality go on Xero.

95% of clients we do not let them near the book-keeping, thats a recipe for disaster

The extra returns all falling at the same time, once again I will say - you spread the work across the weeks in the quarter, it does not all fall in one month, the only thing that falls in one month is clicking submit

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Replying to Winnie Wiggleroom:
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By NotAnAccountant2
28th Aug 2021 09:49

Winnie Wiggleroom wrote:

kenny achampong wrote:

95% of clients we do not let them near the book-keeping, thats a recipe for disaster

The extra returns all falling at the same time, once again I will say - you spread the work across the weeks in the quarter, it does not all fall in one month, the only thing that falls in one month is clicking submit

But you're missing how MTD works. Starting 6th July 2023 you have 30 days to add every transaction from 6th April to 5th July 2023 and submit.

There are roughly 2.8million landlords, so roughly 700K of them will have a tenancy ending in the quarter, so at the very least, assuming the absolute minimum of uploading 3 x gross rent and no expenses for the quarter, you're going to have to ask each of them, did your rent change in the quarter, when, and what is the new rent. I think, if you're using traditional accounting, that's all you'll need to do. If you're using cash accounting you'll have to check how many payments of rent actually occurred in the quarter, then you'll have to match each of them up to a gross rent amount.

The more I think about this the more I think that what HMRC are actually looking for is everybody's income (hence why they don't seem to care about expenses). They're thinking this will expose the black economy. But I don't see how it's going to make any difference at all. They could have got legislation to have the banks report all credits to everybody's bank account but they've presumably realized that this is going to be utter rubbish because people move money between current accounts and savings accounts. But I don't see how asking the taxpayer to do it is going to make things better.

If the taxpayer (perfectly legally) uses one account for their sole trader/property business and their personal account then they will have to filter any bank feed anyway. The honest will make mistakes and include transactions they shouldn't - while the crooked will continue to deliberately filter out transactions they shouldn't.

The people who regularly receive cash now have an extra disincentive to bank their money. There already is a temptation to evade tax. Now additionally it avoids paperwork. People just love red tape! (sarcasm)

We really shouldn't be looking forward to another possible Horizon scandal. Your window cleaner par excellence borrowed an extra 40K on his mortgage for work on his property. He imported the bank feed into his cloud provider and clicked submit. HMRC are suddenly very interested in this person who appears to be earning 60K per year (or even 45K/quarter) and the window cleaner now has a heart attack or committed suicide due to the stress of trying to sort it out. (Think of the case where a tax code is changed dramatically, from 1257L to K50 where someone with a 20K per year job and 15K per year from a let property "appears" to have an income of >100K due to a mistake in the quarterly submission due to their parents giving them 50K for a deposit on a house. The negative effects can be almost instantaneous)
Your H&W joint property owners, no other income or maybe a state pension 12K/year each each click submit. Suddenly there's 25K a year of "tax gap" money that HMRC have just found!

Additionally, all of these cloud providers soaking up bank feeds is going to be a gold mine for fraudsters looking for ripe pickings. If people at facebook and google are doing illegal "surveillance" then I'm certain there will be people at the cloud accounting providers who can be bribed to provide financial information on people using the system, especially as we've been promised there will be free systems for MTD - who is going to pay all the costs of trying to keep things secure? (Perhaps that's why the government want to roll back GDPR, so that the cloud providers can make money selling all our financial data)

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Replying to NotAnAccountant2:
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By johnhemming
28th Aug 2021 09:51

>But you're missing how MTD works. Starting 6th July 2023 you have 30 days
>to add every transaction from 6th April to 5th July 2023 and submit.

Actually starting 6th April the transactions need to be entered.

My personal view is that for the smaller businesses accounts will be done on a cash basis each quarter and potentially accruals will be adjusted at the end of the year.

I would expect those smaller businesses that have accountants or book keepers to start with transactions from open banking (or a similar interface) where not a cash business.

Hence once every submission period (which can be more frequent than quarterly) someone will check the coding is correct.

Waiting until the end of the quarter before putting any data into a system will be a recipe for problems.

The people that do it now tend to update the data either once a week or once a month. I have a few taxpayers who are doing ITSA, but actually no accountants or book keepers as yet.

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Replying to johnhemming:
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By NotAnAccountant2
28th Aug 2021 10:59

Gaah, I responded and tried to be intelligent with my quoting - which ended up utter garbage, which I then tried to edit, and now it seems to have disappeared completely.

Trying without quoting.
Re "add". Sorry, I worded it badly. I was referring to the totalling up of the transactions for the submission. I know you can do it more often than quarterly, and you can amend the submissions, but in practice for properties let via an agent there's only going to be three transactions per quarter to deal with - and it will probably take longer to do the 2FA than it will to enter them into cloud software, so people will probably do it once per quarter, and re the next point, possibly don't need to change anything at all over what is done now.

Re different accounting methods - Can you use a different accounting method for the quarter and EOY submissions? In which case I think that will make things a lot easier for many people. For property let through an agent, using accruals means that the income is defined by the tenancy agreement, so there's usually only going to be one tricky month per year to deal with. Expenses might look a bit weird if you use a bank feed to calculate the deductions and "cash basis" as a late rent will make the expenses very high one quarter and negative the next but HMRC don't care about expenses.

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Replying to johnhemming:
By petersaxton
28th Aug 2021 11:52

Why 5th July? Don't you mean 5th August?

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Replying to NotAnAccountant2:
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By Winnie Wiggleroom
28th Aug 2021 09:53

NotAnAccountant2 wrote:

Winnie Wiggleroom wrote:

But you're missing how MTD works. Starting 6th July 2023 you have 30 days to add every transaction from 6th April to 5th July 2023 and submit.

No with all due respect that is not how it works is it - starting on the 6th April 2023 we will be adding transactions on a daily and weekly basis so by the time we get to 5th July 2023 99% of the work is already done - thats the point

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Replying to Winnie Wiggleroom:
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By NotAnAccountant2
28th Aug 2021 10:21

Winnie Wiggleroom wrote:

NotAnAccountant2 wrote:

Winnie Wiggleroom wrote:

But you're missing how MTD works. Starting 6th July 2023 you have 30 days to add every transaction from 6th April to 5th July 2023 and submit.

No with all due respect that is not how it works is it - starting on the 6th April 2023 we will be adding transactions on a daily and weekly basis so by the time we get to 5th July 2023 99% of the work is already done - thats the point

But go back to my example of the person with 20K/year PAYE and 15K/year rental income and a one off 50K gift through their account. You were the one who said you wanted to use a bank feed to make this simple. They can import the bank transactions daily into their accounts, it really doesn't matter. The fact is that if you want to review it as an accountant, you have 30 days from 6th July. You can, of course, review the transactions weekly if you want, but you're still going to need to ask questions like "in april you got rent from the agent of 1025.44, in May it was 905.44 and in June it was 1053.27, why was it different?" and the tenant then comes back with "Oh, the gas cert was renewed in May, that was an extra 100+VAT. And the tenancy was renewed in June at an extra 25pm." Perhaps you'll just automatically exclude that 40K, or is it taxable? Who knows? You need answers by Saturday August 5th 2023 and the clock is ticking.

At a guess, I think the first thing HMRC will try doing is changing tax codes based on the quarterly submissions, I'm not even sure it will require any legislation to do that. And I would expect the HMRC computer to react once the obligation is completed - which will be when the transactions to 5th July is uploaded.

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Replying to NotAnAccountant2:
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By Winnie Wiggleroom
28th Aug 2021 10:40

NotAnAccountant2 wrote:

Winnie Wiggleroom wrote:

but you're still going to need to ask questions like "in april you got rent from the agent of 1025.44, in May it was 905.44 and in June it was 1053.27, why was it different?" and the tenant then comes back with "Oh, the gas cert was renewed in May, that was an extra 100+VAT. And the tenancy was renewed in June at an extra 25pm."

well each client has its own unique set of issues doesn't it? but in this example it comes down to making sure they provide the right paperwork in the first place , then when you come across that transaction in May you ask them in May not wait until July.
Generally our routine is to clear queries in the following month, 95% of transactions are always the same things usually

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Replying to NotAnAccountant2:
By petersaxton
28th Aug 2021 12:03

Surely the client will upload the rent statement from the agent which explains any deductions?

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Replying to Winnie Wiggleroom:
By kenny achampong
28th Aug 2021 11:09

Oh, so you do the book-keeping for them all? And virtually monthly too? That's definitely not going to work for me. I am interested in the software suggestions though, Sage for £1? Where can you get that from? And Ive just googled FreeAgent and its £29 per month if not with Nat West. But guess a Nat West business account is an option. Assuming they are opening business accounts anymore, I've had clients getting paid quite good money to move away from Nat West so have my doubts.

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Replying to kenny achampong:
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By Winnie Wiggleroom
28th Aug 2021 11:32

kenny achampong wrote:

Oh, so you do the book-keeping for them all? And virtually monthly too? That's definitely not going to work for me. I am interested in the software suggestions though, Sage for £1? Where can you get that from? And Ive just googled FreeAgent and its £29 per month if not with Nat West. But guess a Nat West business account is an option. Assuming they are opening business accounts anymore, I've had clients getting paid quite good money to move away from Nat West so have my doubts.

Sage was an offer a few years ago so we grabbed a couple of hundred licences, QBO recently offered 100 for £100, Freeagent, anyone that is with Natwest, RBS or Mettle goes onto that for free but we also get it for £14 a month off the top of my head, Pandle is only £2.50, there are others the list goes on, you just need to keep an eye on it.

I cannot imagine how this would work if we asked the clients to do the book-keeping themselves, we would spend longer sorting out the mess each quarter than it would take to do it all ourselves in the first place!

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Replying to Winnie Wiggleroom:
By petersaxton
28th Aug 2021 12:09

I've had offers from Xero. They are two early right now and they will only last a couple of years. I certainly wouldn't be influenced by short term discounts. I'm choosing my software based on my long term judgement of the supplier.

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Replying to Winnie Wiggleroom:
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By Paul Crowley
28th Aug 2021 15:05

You may be the bookkeeper for your clients
Most of us are not
Bookkeeping as in writing up records is an annual job
I have many clients that hold as records the paper bank statements with writing on it

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Replying to Paul Crowley:
By petersaxton
28th Aug 2021 18:44

When I started working life, I worked for a company that had 3 financial accounts staff, 2 estimators and 8 cost accountants. Now they would be lucky to have one estimator, one cost accountant and a bookkeeper coming in one day a week.
When I left full time employment I had to do bookkeeping while I built up my clients and now I do year end accounts and tax and only bookkeeping for two solicitors.
A lot of medium sized accountants are taking on bookkeepers to do the cloud accounting. Sole practitioners can choose to do the same or do it themselves or get the clients to do what they are capable of. I think sole practitioners have to judge what their clients can do and review it and do the rest themselves. If it's going to cost clients more that is what it is.
HMRC say it's only 4 extra clicks a year but we all know HMRC are idiots.

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Replying to Winnie Wiggleroom:
neand
By neanderthal
28th Aug 2021 11:15

so, you spread the over days or weeks in a quarter! how many clients can you turn into robots????

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Replying to Winnie Wiggleroom:
By petersaxton
02nd Sep 2021 18:33

"A business bank account and Xero will cost them £500 pa"

£144 pa for a business bank account and Xero for smaller clients.

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Replying to Winnie Wiggleroom:
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By bernard michael
28th Aug 2021 09:43

Winnie Wiggleroom wrote:

What actual evidence can you point to that shows that it will take you longer to do this work than it does to prepare accounts and the SATR at the moment?

Where have you come up with the quadruple multiple?

What folks do not seem to be understanding here is that its not a big rush once a quarter, you do the work every day, week and month as the transactions come through at your own convenience. Do that and once a quarter its not like "January 4 times a year"

Certainly from the VAT experiment, taking the whole process from entering data up to final accounts/SATR I would say things are better and quicker with clients on cloud accounting.

I fully expect there will now be 85 comments telling me how ridiculous I am, and I am not trying to provoke an argument, all I can tell you is thats my actual experience of doing this, and I would ask the OP respectfully have you actually done this for a client for a year and compared the two, and have you found that MTD did actually take 4 times longer?


Well here's one
How are you going to train the average small self employed individual to give you information quarterly when it's often extremely difficult to get it Annually ??
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Replying to bernard michael:
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By Winnie Wiggleroom
28th Aug 2021 09:57

bernard michael wrote:

Winnie Wiggleroom wrote:

Well here's one
How are you going to train the average small self employed individual to give you information quarterly when it's often extremely difficult to get it Annually ??

I am not sure how many times I can say the same thing on the same thread - we no longer ask every client for information quarterly, we get almost all we need every day through the bank feeds and the other processes we have in place, sure there are always clients that need chasing but the key is, you do not wait until July to chase them for the previous quarter, you do this weekly and monthly

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Replying to Winnie Wiggleroom:
RLI
By lionofludesch
28th Aug 2021 10:12

Winnie Wiggleroom wrote:

bernard michael wrote:

Winnie Wiggleroom wrote:

Well here's one
How are you going to train the average small self employed individual to give you information quarterly when it's often extremely difficult to get it Annually ??

I am not sure how many times I can say the same thing on the same thread - we no longer ask every client for information quarterly, we get almost all we need every day through the bank feeds and the other processes we have in place, sure there are always clients that need chasing but the key is, you do not wait until July to chase them for the previous quarter, you do this weekly and monthly

You only post the bank transactions then ?

If it's cash, you just ignore it ?

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Paul Crowley
28th Aug 2021 15:12

Brilliant

What they do is photograph the cash paid and the App figures out how to fix it.
Same with the mixed use credit card that has just the one business transaction amongst the thirty private transactions
Whoops that cannot be correct as it was a bank payment
No yes it is right because the wife paid the card account from her account this month because she got a bonus from her work

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Replying to Winnie Wiggleroom:
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By Paul Crowley
28th Aug 2021 18:29

You trade is not the typical trade
You refuse the tiny little ones
You do not want clients to write up their own records

You live in a different World to the rest of us

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Replying to Paul Crowley:
RLI
By lionofludesch
28th Aug 2021 18:49

Paul Crowley wrote:

You trade is not the typical trade
You refuse the tiny little ones
You do not want clients to write up their own records

You live in a different World to the rest of us

Agree.

Winnie is cherry picking clients who can cope and then saying, it's all fine because my clients can cope.

Well, I like to look at the wider picture.

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Replying to bernard michael:
By petersaxton
28th Aug 2021 12:05

Bank feeds and attachments with the threat of penalties if they leave it late.

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Replying to bernard michael:
By petersaxton
02nd Sep 2021 18:39

"How are you going to train the average small self employed individual to give you information quarterly when it's often extremely difficult to get it Annually ??"

Explain to them that they will risk penalties if the returns aren't submitted on time every quarter.

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Replying to Winnie Wiggleroom:
neand
By neanderthal
28th Aug 2021 10:48

It makes me wonder whether you are from the HMRC or you dont live in the real world. There is no such a thing as "doing things at your own convenience" in the accounting profession because of all the gvnt filing and payment deadlines on one side and the clients' lack of cooperation on the other. Not only we are struggling to cope with things the way they are now (vat rerurns, accounts, RTI), but imagine what we will up against if this thing goes through. one word: IMPOSSIBLE. If you are a practicing accountant, you only represnet 0.0001% of practitioners.

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Replying to neanderthal:
boxfile
By spilly
28th Aug 2021 17:23

I’ve been wondering how we are ever going to be able to take any time off after this comes in. As you say, there are endless deadlines as it is so adding yet more could make it tricky for any sole practitioner to manage.

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Replying to spilly:
By petersaxton
28th Aug 2021 18:49

Say the first deadline is 05/08/23. The second deadline is 05/11/23.
Don't you have enough options in that three months?

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Replying to petersaxton:
ALISK
By atleastisoundknowledgable...
29th Aug 2021 12:40

petersaxton wrote:

Say the first deadline is 05/08/23. The second deadline is 05/11/23.
Don't you have enough options in that three months?

But it’s not 3 months really is it, it’s 1 month and 5 days. We file half our vat returns between 1 month & 1 month 7 days.

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