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THERE ARE PENALTIES FOR LATE RETURNS IN THE RTI PILOT

THERE ARE PENALTIES FOR LATE RETURNS IN THE RTI...

Didn't find your answer?

I have just this minute come of the phone to SAGE and I could scream!

We were advised there were no penalties at all for any late filing (obviously only if we missed the 19 May deadline) if we were in the pilot but have now been advised there are!!

We have about 100 annual payrolls in the pilot and only found out very late in the day that the deadline for submitting yearend returns had moved from May 19 to April 19. Needless to say we had no way of gathering all the info we needed (CIS & other staff that would normally have been on the P38A) to submit by the 19 April but were not too worried as we knew FPS's could be submitted late (as we have done quite a few of those with 150 payrolls in the pilot!) and there were no penalties anyway. (We also have another 150 payrolls not in the pilot).

We are now in the position to start submitting month 12 FPS's and the End of Year Declarations and guess what - They cannot be submitted as we have gone past 19 April.

Called SAGE who advised the only way around this is to call HMRC (currently on hold to them now), give them a list of all the payrolls affected and then when the EYU facility is available then we have 14 days to submit everything via the Government Gateway. If we do not do this then PENALTIES WILL NOT BE WAIVED!!

Has no-one else come across this problem??

Replies (56)

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By onicholson
23rd Apr 2013 13:30

There are more details from HMRC if you need to use their EYU:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rti/emp-monthly-update-apr13.pdf

If you're depending on HMRC's tools then you must contact them or you'll end up with penalties since the tools won't be ready in time.

The 19th May deadline is an extended deadline for this year because the non-RTI companies have until 19th May, but normally it would be 19th April. However, that's just a deadline for the final submission. An FPS still can't be sent later than 19th April and Sage aren't supporting the EYU for the pilot, which means you're dependent on HMRC's tools that aren't going to be ready in time.

The deadline for informing them that you'll be late because of the delay with the tools is 19th May though so you could wait until it's a little quieter to contact them.

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By Kazmc
23rd Apr 2013 14:22

Before...

before we joined the pilot we were told there would be no penalties at all and we were certainly not told that the end of year information would have to be with HMRC a month earlier and that if it wasnt we would get a penalty!!

How on earth can HMRC justify the change in this?

I have now spoken to HMRC who have advised we will not be able to do an EYU via the Government Gateway as this is for adjustments to FPS's and of course as ours are annual payrolls and only run in month 12 no FPS have been submitted.

Called SAGE back who said it was HMRC who told them to lockdown the facility to do any FPS's after 19 April.

So we are now in the position that we cannot submit any payroll details to HMRC for 12/13 for nearly a 100 payrolls and face a £100 fine for each one!!!

UTTER MADNESS

the technician I spoke to on the phone at SAGE says they were unaware of any penalties being given out until yesterday.

Apparently SAGE were told by HMRC that the EYU via the Government Gateway would accept new payroll information and not just amendements to previously submitted details but HMRC are saying different.

I am awaiting a call back from SAGE as they are now consulting with HMRC.

I just hope and pray that SAGE can lift the block on submitting FPS's so we can then submit the Employer Declaration via the Government Gateway otherwise I have no idea what we are going to do.

This is a monumental [***]-up and completely penalises employers for joining the pilot.

 

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Replying to johnjenkins:
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By onicholson
23rd Apr 2013 16:26

Kazmc wrote:

Kazmc wrote:

I have now spoken to HMRC who have advised we will not be able to do an EYU via the Government Gateway as this is for adjustments to FPS's and of course as ours are annual payrolls and only run in month 12 no FPS have been submitted.

The EYU supports adding new starters and making employees leavers, they don't need to have filed an FPS. The declarations can't be sent via EYU but you could do an EPS with the declarations included instead.

The limitation on filing an FPS after 19th April isn't decided by Sage and they won't be able to change anything to help you there - HMRC's systems won't accept an FPS after 19th April.

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By Moonbeam
23rd Apr 2013 15:35

I hope this gets sorted fast

As you say, you are now being penalised for being so helpful and joining their wretched pilot scheme. I think the least Sage can do is fight your corner with HMRC and get the penalties lifted for this situation, as they are involved as well. If no joy I wonder whether Rebecca Benneyworth's contacts at HMRC can be persuaded to look at your situation.

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By Ian McTernan CTA
23rd Apr 2013 15:48

client pressganged into pilot

Have come across this- got informed by a client of their payroll details yesterday, and together with the information came the letter that told us he had 'volunteered' for the pilot scheme when he registered for a PAYE scheme in January.

He certainly didn't!

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By maggied8867
24th Apr 2013 12:08

RTI Yearend

I had about 20 companies on the RTI Pilot and I noticed aound the 5th April on Sage's website that the end of year declaration had to be submitted by 19th April,  (on this date the gateway was closed) I called Sage straight away and they told me to ignore it.  So I still have 10 companies to file, I am just going to call them again now, hope I get through!!

 

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Kazmc
24th Apr 2013 13:25

Spoken with SAGE

maggied8867 wrote:

I had about 20 companies on the RTI Pilot and I noticed aound the 5th April on Sage's website that the end of year declaration had to be submitted by 19th April,  (on this date the gateway was closed) I called Sage straight away and they told me to ignore it.  So I still have 10 companies to file, I am just going to call them again now, hope I get through!!

 

I have spoke with SAGE again today and it seems that the Employer Declarations can still go through (SAGE, yesterday, were not aware apparently that HMRC had lifted the lockdown on Employer Declarations and looks like the lockdown is only on the FPS's).

i would be interested to hear how your conversation went with SAGE on this issue

Many thanks

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7om
By Tom 7000
24th Apr 2013 12:26

tip of the ice berg

I didnt join it...why would you get involved in a beta test without pay and then face penalties...

 

As my dad said never volunteer for anything...particularly if in the Army...

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Replying to Matrix:
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By Kazmc
24th Apr 2013 13:22

It was sold to us...

Tom 7000 wrote:

I didnt join it...why would you get involved in a beta test without pay and then face penalties...

 

As my dad said never volunteer for anything...particularly if in the Army...

Well it was sold to us on the strict basis that there would be no penalties and we would not have to do yearend returns.

We are a very small Department and run 300+ payrolls so the thought of doing the normal yearend returns and trying to get to grips with a completely new system at the same time would have been impossible for us, this seemed the best option.

In hindsight and with what we have learnt in the last couple of days..... obviously not the right decision.

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Replying to UshatPoev:
By mwngiol
24th Apr 2013 15:28

In writing?

Kazmc wrote:

Well it was sold to us on the strict basis that there would be no penalties and we would not have to do yearend returns.

Do you have that in writing? If so and you end up having penalties applied then I'd say you have a pretty formidable weapon to defend yourself with in front of an appeal tribunal.

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By mydoghasfleas
24th Apr 2013 12:40

"Lin Homer: The backup plan is to be ahead of ourselves rather "

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmtreasy/uc673-ii/uc67301.htm

She said it would all work so smoothly, for those of you with lunch in front of your screen, question 160 onwards was what was promised on RTI.

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By Charles Kwan
24th Apr 2013 12:43

Why it only happens to Sage

I am using Moneysoft and it has been plain sailing since start of April Both RTI filing for 2013/14 and Year end filing for 2012/13 and I also got a couple of clients on pilot scheme for 2012/13 and there were no problem on filing too.

 

Wonder that was Sage only problem.  Good job throughout my 45 years working as CA I never trust Sage.

 

 

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By paywatch
24th Apr 2013 12:44

RTI and EYU

 

To avoid a late filing penalty for tax years 2012/13 and 2013/14, employers and pension payers must submit the final FPS for an employee by 19 April or where adjustments are required an EYU must be submitted by 19 May.

For 2012/13 the EYU functionality will not be available on the Basic PAYE Tools until after 19 May 2013. Employers should submit the EYU within 14 days of the May version of the Basic PAYE Tools being available in order to avoid any penalty being charged.

If an employer has sent HMRC an EYU by 19 May, and then finds a further EYU is necessary for that tax year, then if this subsequent EYU is sent after 19 May, no late filing penalties will apply. This is because the employer has already complied with their ‘final’ RTI filing duties for that tax year. An employer can submit an EYU for up to six years after the original FPS or EPS was sent.

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By Suzanneg
24th Apr 2013 13:14

EOY returns

You are in the RTI pilot so you are doing HMRC a favour, what would be the penalties I wonder if you just e-filed the returns as normal?  They then wouldn't be late and they can't fine you for non-RTI submission because this isn't legislated mandatory until 13/14 tax year.

 

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Replying to WESTA:
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By Kazmc
24th Apr 2013 13:19

If only that simple

Suzanneg wrote:

You are in the RTI pilot so you are doing HMRC a favour, what would be the penalties I wonder if you just e-filed the returns as normal?  They then wouldn't be late and they can't fine you for non-RTI submission because this isn't legislated mandatory until 13/14 tax year.

 

 

Oh if only it could be that simple, but unfortunately as we have submitted an EAS (Employer Alignment Submission) for all the payrolls when we joined the pilot we cannot come out of RTI!!!

Many thanks for your comment though :)

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By Kazmc
24th Apr 2013 13:30

Have received this info in an email from SAGE.....

 

R&D has since come back after speaking again to HMRC to say that

The block imposed by HMRC appears to only affect FPS returns

EOY submissions should still go through for all companies, butWhere an FPS has been done in 2012-13 but the EOY is successfully received but late, a penalty ‘may still be applied’Where an EAS has been done but no FPS returns, and then an EOY is received we would anticipate a penalty may be more likely [but we are in discussions with HMRC on this] and for those companies in particular we would suggest you inform HMRC you expect to have to make some kind of a late return (to account for the missed FPS returns)

 

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By maggied8867
24th Apr 2013 13:43

I spoke to Sage who said that I had to use the HMRC tools EYU (once they have put them on their website) for those companies who I filed after the 19th april

I have just spoken to HMRC, and they say they they only needed the FPS statement ticked as the last one of the year, for the companies on the pilot scheme, and there would definately not be any penalties if the returns were late.  It is difficult as we are getting diferent answers both from HMRC & Sage

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Replying to tim hervey:
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By Kazmc
24th Apr 2013 14:00

Wrong Info?

maggied8867 wrote:

I spoke to Sage who said that I had to use the HMRC tools EYU (once they have put them on their website) for those companies who I filed after the 19th april

I have just spoken to HMRC, and they say they they only needed the FPS statement ticked as the last one of the year, for the companies on the pilot scheme, and there would definately not be any penalties if the returns were late.  It is difficult as we are getting diferent answers both from HMRC & Sage

 

If you have done an FPS during the 12-13 tax year (even if you havent done month 12) you can do the Employer Declaration submission via SAGE. We are currently sitting here doing 80!

I think you are being given the wrong information by SAGE. Call back and ask to speak with Jane Southwood or David Wandless and they were the technicians helping me this morning.

SAGE have not included the 'final pay' tick box on the FPS, they have included it on the Employer Declaration submission and is automatically set to 'final pay' on that.

Let me know how you get on :)

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By chuds
24th Apr 2013 14:04

SAGE and RTI

I am some what relieved to read the above comments as I thought I was the only one who had missed this very important change of deadline to 19 April 2013.  I too spoke to SAGE yesterday who advised that I had to speak to HMRC, however, she also advised that the payroll agent and SAGE would be fined for late submission!!!!  Bit of incorrect advice me thinks?

We had submitted our final FPS's but it was the EOY declaration that apparently should have been submitted by 19 April 2013, as this is a 'fina'l EPS our SAGE programme allowed us to submit and we have received the usual submission successful printouts and emails from HMRC, I am now worried that all of the clients for whom this was not submitted are going to be fined even though we were advised that no fines for the 1st year of RTI?

The lady I spoke with at SAGE said to try and submit and if accepted this 'should' be OK but still can not guarantee no fines.

What a mess!!!!

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Morph
By kevinringer
24th Apr 2013 16:19

Am I missing something ...

... because you don't need the CIS figures for the final RTI filing because employers with CIS were excluded from the pilot. And you don't need to file a P38A because such employees should have been included in RTI. There is an RTI year end filing but it is basically the questions and statutory pay compensation and recovery.

We're using Moneysoft and RTI is a breeze. The only glitch in Moneysoft is that all employees with the same payment frequency have to have the same payslip date. But that doesn't affect most employers. Switch to Moneysoft and save money and hair colour.

EDIT: I was thinking of the employer being the contractor. Of course if the employer is a subbie company then you would need the CIS.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Kazmc
24th Apr 2013 14:19

CIS & P38A

kevinringer wrote:

... because you don't need the CIS figures for the final RTI filing because employers with CIS were excluded from the pilot. And you don't need to file a P38A because such employees should have been included in RTI. There is an RTI year end filing but it is basically the questions and statutory pay compensation and recovery.

We're using Moneysoft and RTI is a breeze. The only glitch in Moneysoft is that all employees with the same payment frequency have to have the same payslip date. But that doesn't affect most employers. Switch to Moneysoft and save money and hair colour.

We did have some payrolls with CIS accepted onto the pilot as a test for HMRC and we have to check with ALL employers that they have not forgotten to tell us about anyone they have been paying not included on the payroll for whatever reasons who would normally have been able to be included on the P38A for 12-13. If there would have been any additions then we would have had to run them through the payroll instead of using the P38A.

Glad yours is so simple :)

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By yogic accountant
24th Apr 2013 16:33

I don't believe they will raise penalties for this
This is from HMRC's website on the subject, so if you do find yourself with a fine I would just refer them to their own guidance...Penalties for late returns 2012-13 and 2013-14

There will be no change to the penalties for late filing of returns for the tax years 2012-13 and 2013-14. The current penalty regime will continue to apply at the tax year end. There will be no penalties if in-year Full Payment Submissions (FPSs) are submitted late.

Employers and pension providers must submit an FPS 'on or before' they pay an employee or pensioner. If they still have information to send after 5 April, they can send this on an FPS until 19 April, then on an Earlier Year Update after that. To avoid a late filing penalty for 2012-13 and 2013-14, they must report the final payment made to an employee or pensioner by 19 May following the end of the relevant tax year.

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By gary.ging
24th Apr 2013 16:50

 

 

Hi

As someone who works on Sage’s RTI team,  I thought I'd take the opportunity to clarify the current situation.

With any significant change, such as RTI, we always try to support our customers so they have the right information to feel confident. An important part of preparing for RTI was the pilot, so thank you to all our customers who took part.

During the pilot we provided guidance for our customers on the impact RTI would have on their payroll processes. As it was always the case that the RTI end of year declarations should be sent by 19th April, and these declarations can be sent via a FPS or EPS, we included this information in our guidance. We also took the opportunity to remind customers of this date when we sent out our year-end guide.

One of the many changes HMRC have implemented for RTI is to restrict a FPS for the previous tax year if it is being sent after the 19th April of the following tax year. Anybody who has tried to do this since 20th April will have seen their submission fail due to error code 7809 'This submission cannot be accepted as the date of submission is after 19 April following the tax year to which it relates'. This is a restriction that has been designed by HMRC, not Sage, and it is still possible to send an EPS for 2012/13.

When designing our RTI software we consulted with our customers to understand their concerns and any potential issues they may have around RTI and this led us to the current implementation where the end of year declarations are separated from the normal payroll process and sent via an EPS, not a FPS. We took this decision because it means that you do not have to have decided on the declarations by the 5th April, which is the latest date by which you should have done a FPS for 2012/13 payments, and gives more time to establish the correct response. It also means that you can still send the declarations after 19th April as you will not be affected by the FPS restriction, although HMRC would consider this to be a late submission due to it being after the deadline.

Our customers who took part in the pilot had successfully sent over 30,000 end of year declarations by 19th April.  For those who have not yet done so we are working closely with HMRC to clarify their new guidance on the 19th April deadline and we’ll be able to advise these customers more fully when we have this information.

The feedback we are getting from our customers who have brought over 280,000 PAYE schemes into RTI has so far been really positive. However, we understand that some customers still have questions or need further advice so please do get in touch or visit www.sage.co.uk/rtisupport

 

Gary Ging

Sage UK

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By kenatnam
24th Apr 2013 16:54

New Employers in early 2013

We were horrified to find out that new employers set up in early 2013 had been included in RTI as a matter of course! apparently HMRC had publicised it - but why spend years giving one date then act before then?

We don't know who or what to believe - HMRC themselves gave the start date for RTI as 6th April unless you had signed up for the pilot - how many people are still unaware that they needed to run new employers in RTI and submit the year end by 19th April??

And then HMRC won't  have the EYU tool ready till the end of May, but the deadline is the 19th May - they started planning all this in 2003! Their advice is that our payroll software should have that functionality, but Sage doesn't...........

 

 

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Replying to smullan:
Tom McClelland
By TomMcClelland
24th Apr 2013 17:07

EYU specification is a nightmare,

kenatnam wrote:

We were horrified to find out that new employers set up in early 2013 had been included in RTI as a matter of course! apparently HMRC had publicised it - but why spend years giving one date then act before then?

We don't know who or what to believe - HMRC themselves gave the start date for RTI as 6th April unless you had signed up for the pilot - how many people are still unaware that they needed to run new employers in RTI and submit the year end by 19th April??

And then HMRC won't  have the EYU tool ready till the end of May, but the deadline is the 19th May - they started planning all this in 2003! Their advice is that our payroll software should have that functionality, but Sage doesn't...........

Not just Sage. Many suppliers have not chosen to implement EYU, including ourselves. This particular problem of numerous employers suddenly discovering that they were on the pilot has been a bolt from the blue.

The EYU is a nightmarish message to implement. You have to file the difference between what has already been filed and the required annual totals. But that is crazy, because you don't know what has already been filed! and there is no way of finding that out for sure. You can possibly believe that the pilot site never filed anything, but how can you know that for sure?

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Replying to smullan:
Morph
By kevinringer
25th Apr 2013 06:48

RTI for new pre-06/04/13 employers

kenatnam wrote:

We were horrified to find out that new employers set up in early 2013 had been included in RTI as a matter of course! apparently HMRC had publicised it - but why spend years giving one date then act before then?

We setup many new employers during the pilot and were given the option to go straight onto RTI. None were put onto RTI without us agreeing first.

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By Whinger
24th Apr 2013 17:10

moneysoft
Hey
How can you file RTi for 12/13 under moneysoft? Mine has no option for that?
Thanks

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By DCaine
24th Apr 2013 18:39

Moneysoft RTI for 12-13

I have shown the link to their website that tells you how to do it below.  I have filed a couple of payroll schemes for 12-13 under RTI with no problems - both were new schemes and it does seem HMRC have assumed they will all be filed under RTI although it was not clear that was the case when we got the notifications of scheme no's etc.

http://www.moneysoft.co.uk/payroll-software/payroll-manager-rti-new-employer-instructions.htm

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Tom McClelland
By TomMcClelland
24th Apr 2013 20:29

12 / 13?

HMRC is no longer accepting EAS or FPS pilot messages.

EAS was shut down on 6th April, and FPS was shut down on the 19th.

That is an HMRC issue, not a Moneysoft one.

All pilot filing of employee payments from now on has to be done with the EYU message, which most providers do not support as demand was expected to be tiny.

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By Paul Soper
24th Apr 2013 23:04

Oh Dear...

Just another one of a number oif the practical difficulties that arise under RTI

HMRC stressed how important it was for employers to ensure that NIC numbers are right but... won't accept an application for verification of an NIC number until the first FPS submission has been made.  Now, on the 19th of April, they issue a press release which points out this problem for employers who decided to join the pilot (because they could familiarise themselves with RTI without penalties) who now find that - oops - Basic Tools doesn't include the facility to submit an EYU until late May by which time it is... too late

We are still a few days away from the biggest submission of data HMRC have ever received - do the events of the last few days fill us with confidence???

The moral is that the pilot should have extended for one further year to allow a whole cycle of submission for a genuine spread of diverse businesses to take place, the lessons be learned, and the changes implemented.  But no - just like SDLT - implemented too early with insufficient recognition of the practical difficulties

Next year and the year after Tribunal cases should make interesting reading!

 

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By dnicholson
25th Apr 2013 01:09

Practical difficulties?

Well RTI always had a deadline of the 19th to file figures for the month ending the previous 5th - year end Is no different. The only extra at year end is a set of declarations. Being in denial that this was the case seems to have become a substitute for making the changes needed to make it happen before year end.

HMRC will only reveal NINO's after they have verified you as an employer, hence after the FPS.

Most of the problems we've seen have been due to the transition from P35 to RTI, and I don't see what another year of trial would change. The pilot was a period of time to adjust to the new routine, although getting more people into it earlier in the tax year may have helped.

 

(Edited for NINO verification logic.)

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Morph
By kevinringer
25th Apr 2013 06:44

@kazmc

I was only thinking of employers who were contractors, but of course you would need CIS details for employer companies that were subcontractors. Kazmc can you clarify which type of CIS clients were included in the pilot?

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By Vidpark
25th Apr 2013 08:20

"Respect" to Mr McClelland

I have no idea if the anti Sage sentiments in this thread are justified or not but I tip my hat to Mr McClelland for providing some balance and not sitting back to watch his competitor take a kicking.

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By maggied8867
25th Apr 2013 18:30

I think the easiest way would be for HMRC to open the gateway now until 19th May so we can submit though our software.

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By Paul Soper
26th Apr 2013 08:09

Verification of NINO

Contrast this situation with the position of CIS returns - a contractor registers to set up the scheme but cannot submit a return without information from HMRC, for the revenue to stress the importance of getting NINOs right, but refusing confirmation before accepting the first FPS is getting the whole process the wrong way round, especially for employers who were already within PAYE - the argument that they needed to be identified as employers by making an FPS first is simply specious  where they already operate PAYE whether under the old or the new system...

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Replying to DJKL:
Tom McClelland
By TomMcClelland
26th Apr 2013 09:56

Agreed

Paulsoper wrote:

Contrast this situation with the position of CIS returns - a contractor registers to set up the scheme but cannot submit a return without information from HMRC, for the revenue to stress the importance of getting NINOs right, but refusing confirmation before accepting the first FPS is getting the whole process the wrong way round, especially for employers who were already within PAYE - the argument that they needed to be identified as employers by making an FPS first is simply specious  where they already operate PAYE whether under the old or the new system...

One of several errors in the current specification, that a longer pilot would have identified and allowed to be corrected. The problem is that the pilot was scarcely under way when the live operational specifications and business rules had been completed because the whole thing was such a rush job, so practical pilot experience didn't affect the full live spec.

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By dnicholson
26th Apr 2013 09:57

@Paulsoper

I agree with your sentiment, but there's now an automated system for sending out corrected NINO's and having the software pick them up. So if HMRC pick up that the NINO is wrong, the return you've sent is applied to the right person, and the NINO can be changed easily for later FPS's.

Having the FPS first is just part of that system. It could have been done differently but isn't too serious.

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Morph
By kevinringer
26th Apr 2013 10:26

But why do we have to have two seperate systems?

We return CIS in arrears between the 6th and 19th. It would be a lot less hassle if we could return RTI at the same time ie a single return for all employees for all pay frequencies and all pay dates. We report CIS in arrears and this has worked well for several years. HMRC may argue that the info will be needed in advance for UC – but this is no essential because self-employed will be reporting their income monthly in arrears and other income (eg state pension, rental income) will be reported annually in arrears. There will be cases where someone who is both employed and self-employed or ceases self-employment and commences employment having an artifical decrease in UC for the month of the change because DWP will be notified of the employment increase in advance but won’t be notified of the self-employment decrease until after the event. RTI is but a minor irritant compared to what is to come with UC.

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By gary.ging
29th Apr 2013 08:38

No penalty if EPS is used by 19th May

Hi,

After working very closely with HMRC over the last few days I am delighted to give an update on this which should make things straight forward for everybody.

HMRC have confirmed that as long as the end of year declarations are sent on an EPS by 19th May then there will be no penalty issued and there will be no need to send an EYU. 

If you are using Sage Payroll then this means that you just need to follow the instructions in your Year End guide to complete and send the end of year declarations.

I hope this clarifies the situation and eases any concerns people may have had but please get in touch if not.

Regards

Gary

Sage UK

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By gary.ging
29th Apr 2013 09:08

re: Annual Payrolls?

Hi Kazmc,

If the PAYE scheme was signed up to take part in the pilot but no RTI submissions were made before 19th April then it is not possible to send an FPS for 2012/13.

We have confirmed with HMRC that any scheme in this situation should contact the Employer Helpline who will then arrange for the scheme to revert back to traditional PAYE for 2012/13, so that you can then complete a P35/P14 submission. The P35/P14 must be sent by 19th May otherwise a penalty could be incurred.

This is also the case for any new scheme that was put into the RTI pilot by default and is unable to complete the P35/P14 submission at the moment.

Regards

Gary

Sage UK

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Replying to Jennifer Adams:
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By Kazmc
29th Apr 2013 09:16

No good to us....

gary.ging wrote:

Hi Kazmc,

If the PAYE scheme was signed up to take part in the pilot but no RTI submissions were made before 19th April then it is not possible to send an FPS for 2012/13.

We have confirmed with HMRC that any scheme in this situation should contact the Employer Helpline who will then arrange for the scheme to revert back to traditional PAYE for 2012/13, so that you can then complete a P35/P14 submission. The P35/P14 must be sent by 19th May otherwise a penalty could be incurred.

This is also the case for any new scheme that was put into the RTI pilot by default and is unable to complete the P35/P14 submission at the moment.

Regards

Gary

Sage UK

Hi Gary

We have spoken at length with HMRC and they have advised that as we submitted an EAS for all 100 payrolls in readiness for yearend we cannot come out of the pilot, so we now find ourselves in the position of being unable to submit any information to HMRC. We cannot submit via SAGE software and have been advised by HMRC and yourselves that we will not be able to use the Government Gateway EYU as that is for amendements only.

What a mess!

We have no idea what to do, could you possibly continue to liase with HMRC and find a solution for us?

Many thanks in advance

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By gary.ging
29th Apr 2013 09:52

re: No good to us

Hi Kazmc,

We had a number of discussions last week with HMRC on this to clarify what can/should happen for various scenarios and we got confirmation from them on Friday that the scheme can be reverted back to non-RTI status if no FPS was sent for 2012/13 by 19th April, as this will be the only way in which the YTD figures can be sent.

We've been assured that the Employer Helpline will now be aware of the situation and what the options are, so you should be able to go back to them with the scheme details to get the RTI status changed.

To summarise:

If the scheme was in RTI pilot but no FPS sent at all by 19th April - scheme needs to be reverted and P35/P14 sent by 19th MayIf the scheme was in RTI pilot and final FPS was sent by 19th April but without end of year declarations - use EPS to send declarations by 19th MayIf the scheme was in RTI pilot and FPS's were sent during the year but the final FPS figures were incorrect - use EPS to send declarations by 19th May (if not already done so) and use EYU when available to correct the FPS figures

Regards

Gary

Sage UK

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Replying to SteveHa:
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By Kazmc
29th Apr 2013 10:03

Brilliant

gary.ging wrote:

Hi Kazmc,

We had a number of discussions last week with HMRC on this to clarify what can/should happen for various scenarios and we got confirmation from them on Friday that the scheme can be reverted back to non-RTI status if no FPS was sent for 2012/13 by 19th April, as this will be the only way in which the YTD figures can be sent.

We've been assured that the Employer Helpline will now be aware of the situation and what the options are, so you should be able to go back to them with the scheme details to get the RTI status changed.

To summarise:

If the scheme was in RTI pilot but no FPS sent at all by 19th April - scheme needs to be reverted and P35/P14 sent by 19th MayIf the scheme was in RTI pilot and final FPS was sent by 19th April but without end of year declarations - use EPS to send declarations by 19th MayIf the scheme was in RTI pilot and FPS's were sent during the year but the final FPS figures were incorrect - use EPS to send declarations by 19th May (if not already done so) and use EYU when available to correct the FPS figures

Regards

Gary

Sage UK

That sounds brilliant, I'm on hold now to HMRC, will let you know what they say.

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Replying to SteveHa:
By maggied8867
29th Apr 2013 16:46

There is no solution

Hi Gary

I have several companies I did the payroll for on the RTI pilot & did not file the FPS by 19th April.  I called HMRC several times & they say they cannot revert my Scheme as I already activated it and I will not be able to use HMRC's basic tools because the amount of employees I have is more than 9.  They say my only solution is to find Commercial software.  Are sage doing anything about this?

 

Thanks

 

Maggie

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By Paul Soper
29th Apr 2013 10:15

Oh Dear...

This is the inevitable consequence of a pilot which isn't a pilot - if the scheme had been piloted over TWO years many of these problems caused by the transition would have been isolated and sensible procedures, not botched work- rounds, could have been put in place.  I know some small firms who entered the pilot thinking it would give them a year to adjust and get it right without penalty who on the 19th of April (masterful timing for that HMRC press release!) suddendly realised that (again unlike those using Sage - where frankly Sage should have sorted it long before) as they were using Basic Tools they were up the proverbial creek without a paddle.  They must NOT be reassured by the comments above from and about Sage - they MUST contact HMRC NOW and MUST (sorry I'm shouting) download the update to the Basic Tools suite when available and submit the EYU within 14 days or, in the words of HMRC, they WILL be penalised... (thanks!)

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By daveforbes
29th Apr 2013 10:33

unexpected pilots

We have had several users of our software with payrolls that were unexpectedly included in the pilot.

The first they discovered of this when they went to file the P35. If this was prior to 19th April we were advising them to send FPSs for 2012/13. This is no longer possible.

This is not a software specific issue.

Gary from Sage's advice is correct. You need to speak to the employer help line. You may find the phrase "I need to get the RTI start date changed to the 6th April" more useful than asking for it to be "reverted back from RTI" although they amount to one and the same thing.

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Replying to D V Fields:
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By Kazmc
29th Apr 2013 10:41

Correct

daveforbes wrote:

We have had several users of our software with payrolls that were unexpectedly included in the pilot.

The first they discovered of this when they went to file the P35. If this was prior to 19th April we were advising them to send FPSs for 2012/13. This is no longer possible.

This is not a software specific issue.

Gary from Sage's advice is correct. You need to speak to the employer help line. You may find the phrase "I need to get the RTI start date changed to the 6th April" more useful than asking for it to be "reverted back from RTI" although they amount to one and the same thing.

Yes this is fine if you haven't submitted an EAS in 12-13. If you have you are, as previously stated, 'up the creek with no paddle'!!

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By Kazmc
29th Apr 2013 11:04

THIS JUST KEEPS GETTING WORSE....

Hi Gary

I have just come of the phone from HMRC and they are absolutely adamant that we cannot pull out of the pilot as we have submitted an EAS.

They have now told us that we need to send them a list of all clients affected which is fine as this will hopefully stop any penalties (although I'm not holding my breath that it wont still be a nightmare of appealing for each employer, but we will worry about that when we get there!)

We have now been informed that in order to be able to submit the EYU for 12-13 when it becomes available on the BPT we must have submitted an FPS for the 13-14 tax year.

When I queried whether we can use the EYU on the BPT for payrolls with more than 9 (or 15?) employees and for payrolls where no FPS submissions have been done the response was....

"We are not entirely sure at this time how the EYU is going to work in relation to no FPS having been submitted or how many employees it will be able to handle. You will just have to wait and see what happens"...........  

I was also advised that because SAGE do not have an EYU facility there is a strong possibility we would have to purchase additional software if the EYU on the BPT could not accept our submissions due to too many employees.

So we still dont know how we are going to get the information for 12-13 to HMRC and we have about a 100 payrolls affected by this, this answer is not good enough.

 

 

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By daveforbes
29th Apr 2013 12:40

any number of employees for EYU

HMRC says

If your software does not allow you to send an EYU to HMRC, you can use HMRC's Basic PAYE Tools to do this, no matter how many employees are involved.

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Replying to PBH64:
By maggied8867
29th Apr 2013 16:26

Only 9 employees

I have just spoken to HMRC and you can only submit a EYU with HMRC's basic tools for 9 employees only - their solution is to find software.  I have called quite a few and have not found one that does this.  Does anyone know?

 

 

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