Total lack of understanding

Total lack of understanding

Didn't find your answer?

Just in case you haven't noticed, over the years I've had some discussions with various members about Value Pricing (VP).

The members who disagree with me seem to think VP is about ripping clients off. They prefer a "time/cost plus notional profit" approach to pricing, sometimes using timesheets sometime not.

I come at this from the position that time/cost pricing is selfish/self-centred and effectively makes the profession unethical. Continuing with time/cost pricing will make the accounting profession irrelevant. The conclusion is that accountants will just do is more accounts/tax returns as they gradually become more efficient forced by prices falling.

Many existing practitioners may get out before they experience too much pain, but what about the future?

When you understand VP you appreciate it is the only approach to pricing that:

  • Puts the client first
  • Fully aligns the accountant and client
  • Encourage and rewards innovation
  • Drives down costs on low value work
  • Maximises value for everyone (clients, practice owners, employees and society)

Pricing is fundamental to strategy so it seems sensible to me to understand as much as possible about such an important topic. At the end of the day being an accountant in practice requires much more that technical knowledge of accounts/tax. But, there is another reason to fully understand VP.

Business owners expect/need this extra knowledge (especially now) and an accountant who does not understand VP and just prices with cost/plus will probably only be able to talk to their client about things like job costing. 

Over the years I have invested time and energy to build my knowledge of VP through:

  • Reading books
  • Attending seminars and Webinars
  • Accountants (and other professional) who have adopted VP
  • Using VP

I'm interested to know where you have gained your understanding. What have you actually done to build your knowledge of VP?

Bob Harper

Replies (380)

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By Bob Harper
11th Nov 2012 11:32

Perspective

@Peter - the principle is more important than the point.

The way I see it, if a prospect has ten accountants to choose from then (all things being equal and from the prospects perspective) each firm has a 1:10 ten chance of being chosen

As regards multiple Websites, they are to test/develop different propositions. It could be that we end up with hundreds, one for each segment we target.

I also see nothing wrong with working from home, it's what you do that's important not where you do it from. Many of the larger firms with big offices are the most guilty of overlooking their smallest clients.

Bob Harper

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By petersaxton
11th Nov 2012 12:43

Odds

"The way I see it, if a prospect has ten accountants to choose from then (all things being equal and from the prospects perspective) each firm has a 1:10 ten chance of being chosen"

1 in 10 chance is odds of 9-1 against or 1:9 but not 1:10.

1 in 2 chance is odds of evens, 1-1 or 1:1.

Maybe you see things differently to the rest of the world. Maybe that makes you a genius or something else.

 

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By Bob Harper
11th Nov 2012 13:37

Link

@Peter - regardless...being perceived as unique (in a valuable way) is in important objective of marketing links the firm's strategy with it's pricing.

What are the chances of you buying and reading Ron Baker's latest book Implementing Value Pricing?

Bob

 

 

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By petersaxton
11th Nov 2012 13:42

What's the point?

If I told you the odds you wouldn't understand them!

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By Bob Harper
11th Nov 2012 15:41

Long shot

@Peter - bearing in mind you started in 1986 my guess is that it's a long shot that you'll take on a new challenging concept like VP, let alone be big enough to admit there is a better way to approach pricing.

It looks to me like you'd rather argue with me about talking about chances of 10:1 down to 2:1 or odds 9:1 down to 1:1 which is really irrelevant compared to the principle.

Bob

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Replying to DJKL:
Man of Kent
By Kent accountant
11th Nov 2012 16:18

Is VP?

Bob Harper wrote:

 let alone be big enough to admit there is a better way to approach pricing.

!s VP the best?

Based on what?

Using the accountingweb forum members as a random sample of accountants I'd say not.

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By Bob Harper
11th Nov 2012 17:07

Based

@Kent - this is not about what is most common or easiest, it's about what's best and what's the right thing to do.

Back to my original question, have actually read Ron Baker's books on this subject?

Bob

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Replying to Dick Stastey:
Man of Kent
By Kent accountant
11th Nov 2012 17:21

Ok

Why is VP the best and/or right thing to do?

Your OP doesn't mention Ron Baker's book.

Your OP centred on what have others done to understand VP.

Your state that pricing is fundamental to strategy, absolutely, don't disagree there.

You also mention that clients deserve the best service and not to be overcharged or given an average level of service, I agree.

I haven't read RB's book and I won't until someone gives me very good reasons to do so.

So Bob one question (related to your last post).

Why is VP the best or right thing to do?

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By petersaxton
11th Nov 2012 17:39

More lack of understanding

"an accountant who does not understand VP and just prices with cost/plus will probably only be able to talk to their client about things like job costing."

I think this shows a lack of understanding of what is possible. The majority of accountants don't use VP or cost/plus. They tend to go with the market price given their level of experience, knowledge and services offered. Of course, if somebody wants to criticise accountants because of their bad experiences in the past when they misjudged the market they will whether there is any logic or not.

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By Nom_de_Plume
11th Nov 2012 18:13

Snake Oil Salesmen

have existed throughout history.

 

Those that can - DO IT. 

Those that cant - try to tell others how to do it.

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By Bob Harper
11th Nov 2012 18:16

Why

@Kent - here are some reasons:

Reduce the costs of administration (no timesheets)Forces accountants to understand their clientsEncourages and rewards innovationEncourages and rewards learningEncourages and rewards capturing and sharing knowledgeAligns the accountant and clientReduces cost of low value workReduces the failure rate of start-upsFully aligns the interests of the professional and clients.Encourages excellenceEliminates the subsidy system where some clients pay for the learning curve of othersHelps accountants focus on Key Predictive IndicatorsGets rid of the entitlement mentality in the professionFocuses the profession on effectivenessCreates a dynamic profession to attracts the best new peopleEncourages effective delegation, training and managementHelps clients create wealth for individuals and societyRewards investment and technological advancesAllows practice owners to receive a fair share of the value they createAllows the client to know what they will pay in advanceEncourages accountants to always add valueEncourages firms to differentiate themselves, providing more choiceRemoves a self-imposed ceiling a practice owner profit potentialImproves the quality of life for accountants

To understand you need to read Ron's work.

Bob

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By petersaxton
11th Nov 2012 18:22

Reasons?

The first "reason" is frightening: "Reduce the costs of administration (no timesheets)"

Even ignoring the fact that completing timesheets adds very little cost - I only have to select the time on an Outlook style grid - it seems to be ridiculous to ignore whether an accountant is making a profit or loss from a job.

The other "reasons" seem to have nothing to do with value pricing.

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By ShirleyM
11th Nov 2012 18:28

lol

VP is damned amazing isn't it - I bet it can wash dishes, too :)

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Replying to DJKL:
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By Nom_de_Plume
11th Nov 2012 19:31

Dishes ?

ShirleyM wrote:

VP is damned amazing isn't it - I bet it can wash dishes, too :)

 

Sod the dishes, if it can do the ironing I'll buy it. :)

 

 

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Man of Kent
By Kent accountant
11th Nov 2012 19:19

Ok, so

VP is the best because Ron Baker says so.

I'm not going to read the book.

The reasons you give are pretty awful, where did you crib those from?

'Reduces the failure rate of start ups' !!! Based on what evidence?

 

So I should spend how much time:

Reading RB's book

Changing my business approach

Changing my pricing

Changing my clients (the existing one's will think I've lost the plot)

Saving up enough cash to cover the barren period when I wait for clients to come pouring in (5 years? or maybe another 10?)

 

It won't work for me Bob, on any level.

My practice:

1. Gives me more money than I have ever earned and I have had some very well paid jobs.

2. Allows me to see more of my family, I get to take my kids to/from school at least once every week and have dinner with them at least twice a week.

3. Allows me to save for my future.

4. Allows me to work with people I actually like.

5. Allows me to plan for my retirement (I'm 45 now and in another 10 years I'll be thinking about when to stop).

6. Makes me happy ;)

VP would give me the grief of starting all over again.

 

 

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Locutus of Borg
By Locutus
11th Nov 2012 19:30

How does value pricing relate to me, Bob?

I suspect the type of clients I work on are not too different to many others that have commented here.

Virtually all of my work is compliance based, mostly being small owner-managed businesses (usually limited companies) with associated corporate and personal tax.  I have to give fixed fee quotes for all of them, which I base upon the time I expect to spend, the complexity of the work, what the "going rate" for the work is and, if applicable, what the previous accountant charged.

I do bookkeeping / internal accounting for a few of them which I charge on an hourly basis for some and on a fixed fee for others, being just my estimate of hours it will take x how much I want to earn per hour + a little risk premium for giving a fixed fee.

As far as the client is concerned, there is little "value" in what I do beyond they know it needs to be done and if it doesn't get done they will get fined and a lot of hassle.

Tax enquiries occasionally come up, but I can see no other way of billing this other than on a time basis, since at the start I don't know how long it will last, how complex it will be and ultimately how much tax will be payable.  Again there is no "value" to the client here other than making the problem go away as quickly as possible and with the minimal tax liability.

There are occasional tax planning opportunities, but these are fairly standard things (have you considered using the flat rate VAT scheme, efficient profit extraction, etc.) that most clients expect come with the service.

Complex tax planning arrangements such as diverting profits offshore to low tax jurisdictions, isn't my thing, so that "value" option is closed to me.

I'm not sure I know the internal workings of the clients businesses and their markets well enough to be able to advise on how to improve their profits significantly.  In any case, most of my clients are just selling their own time.  So that "value" option is also closed to me.

Sorry, I just can't see how value pricing really relates to me in a significant way.  The same can probably be said for most of the others who comment on this website and the majority of accountants in general practice.

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By Bob Harper
11th Nov 2012 19:30

Amazing

@Shirley - take the list and read the opposite for time/cost based billing. Should the profession based on time/cost billing be proud of that? Should they be open to be challenged?

The only reason firms don't adopt VP is they:

Don't understand it properly Do understand VP but don't have a lot of value to offerCan't just be bothered to pursue excellence

@Peter - the reasons probably "seem" to have nothing to do with VP for you because you don't understand VP properly.

Bob

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Replying to Philip Nickson:
By ShirleyM
11th Nov 2012 19:53

Not working

Bob Harper wrote:

@Shirley - take the list and read the opposite for time/cost based billing. Should the profession based on time/cost billing be proud of that? Should they be open to be challenged?

The only reason firms don't adopt VP is they:

Don't understand it properly Do understand VP but don't have a lot of value to offerCan't just be bothered to pursue excellence

Bob

Bob, I know enough to know it wouldn't suit the average small practice (which includes mine). (I just know another derogatory comment will come my way now I have said that!).

Please do not be so rude as to say because I (and others) do not use VP that we can't be bothered to pursue excellence. Does it make you feel good to belittle (insult) others because they don't see things the way you do?

Considering your 'uniqueness', your 'pursuit of excellence', and the fact that your sole franchisee uses only VP, and VP is so brilliant ... I am surprised that you/your franchisee has only persuaded 30 clients to sign up. I wonder why?

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Replying to Philip Nickson:
Me!
By nigelburge
11th Nov 2012 20:26

Such unbelievable arrogance.

Bob Harper wrote:

The only reason firms don't adopt VP is they:

Don't understand it properly Do understand VP but don't have a lot of value to offerCan't just be bothered to pursue excellence

My lower jaw is now bruised from having hit the floor so hard.

Bob - you have excelled yourself - well done!! 

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By petersaxton
11th Nov 2012 19:32

According to Bob, VP will allow you to

"1. Gives me more money than I have ever earned and I have had some very well paid jobs." - give you even more money

"2. Allows me to see more of my family, I get to take my kids to/from school at least once every week and have dinner with them at least twice a week." - get you to take your kids to/from school eleven days a week and have dinner with them eight days a week

"3. Allows me to save for my future." - allows you to save even more for your future

"4. Allows me to work with people I actually like." - allows you to work with people you like even more

"5. Allows me to plan for my retirement (I'm 45 now and in another 10 years I'll be thinking about when to stop)." - you'll be able to think when to stop in 5 years

"6. Makes me happy ;)" - makes you even happier

"VP would give me the grief of starting all over again." - it would be effortless. You'd look in your new client's eyes and think of a fee and they would accept

Bob's very persuasive. Pity he couldn't be so persuasive when running More Software and Crunchers!

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Man of Kent
By Kent accountant
11th Nov 2012 19:33

Ok, so

oops double post!!

 

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By User deleted
11th Nov 2012 19:42

The trouble with people ...

... is the more you tell them to do something ...

Interesting though, googling Ron Baker, the only links I find are by ...

... Ron Baker!

Interesting there is a self empowerment coach of same name, must be a genetic trait!

Co-incidently, this RB has a website "Children of Light", and the Robert Jordan book I am reading has a fanatical movement (akin to the Spanish Inquisition) also called...

-  you guessed it!  

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By petersaxton
11th Nov 2012 19:44

Maybe I should say

that accountants should bill on time and if anybody doesn't agree with me I only have to say that it's because they don't understand time based billing!

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By User deleted
11th Nov 2012 19:45

Planning for retirement

"5. Allows me to plan for my retirement (I'm 45 now and in another 10 years I'll be thinking about when to stop)." - you'll be able to think when to stop in 5 years

No, actually it will allow you to travel back in time and retire 10 years ago!

Will it clean the mucky pawprints off my kitchen floor and get Miami to win tonight's game?! If so I'm changing my practice right now. (BTW - it needs to work quickly as we're half way through the game and losing by 3 touchdowns)

ps Looked up Ron's book on Amazon and it looks rather unreadable. And expensive. I think Amazon needs to look at value pricing and offer it to me for 1p plus postage.

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By petersaxton
11th Nov 2012 19:50

Great idea

"ps Looked up Ron's book on Amazon and it looks rather unreadable. And expensive. I think Amazon needs to look at value pricing and offer it to me for 1p plus postage."

Maybe Bob should consider posting on Amazon's website and try to convince Amazon to  use value pricing. I'm sure he'd have even more success on Amazon's website than he does here.

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By Bob Harper
11th Nov 2012 19:56

Profits

 

@Kent – I agree, running a good time/cost practice beats being employed.

Leaving money on the table is another reason to explore VP. Looking at the results of accountants I estimate the typical practice owner/partner misses out on £1m over their lifetime.

So what?

Well, for you that could mean more time for your kids now and more security and support for them in the future with enhanced education, health care and financial security with deposits for houses etc.

@0103953 – perhaps the issue isn't VP but (using your words) you not knowing enough to be able to advise on how to improve their profits.

Bob

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Replying to DJKL:
Man of Kent
By Kent accountant
11th Nov 2012 20:03

Don't be a silly billy

Bob Harper wrote:

 

@Kent – I agree, running a good time/cost practice beats being employed.

Leaving money on the table is another reason to explore VP. Looking at the results of accountants I estimate the typical practice owner/partner misses out on £1m over their lifetime.

So what?

Well, for you that could mean more time for your kids now and more security and support for them in the future with enhanced education, health care and financial security with deposits for houses etc.

Oh Bob.

No it won't, VP would give me all the aggro of:

 

"Reading RB's book

Changing my business approach

Changing my pricing

Changing my clients (the existing one's will think I've lost the plot)

Saving up enough cash to cover the barren period when I wait for clients to come pouring in (5 years? or maybe another 10?)"

 

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By Bob Harper
11th Nov 2012 20:01

Not working

@Shirley - for the record, my take is you (and everyone else commenting) doesn't understand VP so I am not insulting you or them.

Bob

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By petersaxton
11th Nov 2012 20:01

Why Google Ron Baker

when you can google Bob Harper?

It appears he is also a fitness coach in the USA and he says this about himself - I think he is trying to give the impression that it's somebody else who thinks this:

"Fitness expert, television star and author Bob Harper is one of the most successful health and lifestyle experts in the world."

"one of the most in-demand fitness specialists worldwide"

"much anticipated and fan-demanded second book"

"wildly popular motivational style and expertise"

"The popularity of Harper’s fitness methods"

"renowned fitness guru created another branch to his lifestyle empire"

"Harper’s ever-growing popularity as a trusted lifestyle specialist"

"what his fans and followers around the country crave: Harper’s motivation and inspiration"

Why try to convince people with thorough analysis when you can come up with total crap in a few seconds?

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Man of Kent
By Kent accountant
11th Nov 2012 20:05

BTW

I don't record time or price based on cost.

 

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Replying to Neophyte:
By petersaxton
11th Nov 2012 20:08

But Bob thinks

Kent accountant wrote:

I don't record time or price based on cost.

 

In Bob's world anybody who doesn't implement value pricing based on Ron Baker's ideas must record time and price based on cost.

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By petersaxton
11th Nov 2012 20:06

Be nice to Bob

and he may give you a lifetime cashflow projection!

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Replying to lionofludesch:
By petersaxton
11th Nov 2012 20:12

What would be unnerving

petersaxton wrote:

and he may give you a lifetime cashflow projection!

would be when it stopped!

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By ShirleyM
11th Nov 2012 20:29

@Nigel

It was the original post describing everyone (who doesn't use VP) as being selfish/self-centred and unethical that gob-smacked me!

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Replying to Tim Vane:
avatar
By jaybee661
11th Nov 2012 20:34

@ShirleyM

ShirleyM wrote:

It was the original post describing everyone (who doesn't use VP) as being selfish/self-centred and unethical that gob-smacked me!

I think this is the problem Shirley, it's not whether we understand VP or not (and, let's be honest, most of us do), it's the way that Bob is so rude to those that don't want to take it on board that is rubbing everyone up the wrong way - but not sure he can grasp that, bless him.

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By petersaxton
11th Nov 2012 20:32

1984 anyone?

Value pricing = good; anything else = bad.

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By petersaxton
11th Nov 2012 20:37

Bless him is true

He's an innocent thrashing about looking for his role in life after being a failure in everything he tried (accounting, More Software, Crunchers) surrounded by people who are much happier with their lot in life.

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By Bob Harper
11th Nov 2012 20:43

Outcome

@Mark - I've looked at your site/blog and I can see why you are doing well. Do you link your fees for non-tax planning to the clients outcome?

@Peter - if you understood VP you'd understand why I say what I say. What I don't understand is buying a book and not reading it.

Bob

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Replying to DJKL:
Logo
By marks
12th Nov 2012 11:15

lets see??

Bob Harper wrote:

@Mark - I've looked at your site/blog and I can see why you are doing well. Do you link your fees for non-tax planning to the clients outcome?

Bob

Eh lets see.....do i link my fees for non-tax planning to the clients outcome.....em................No i dont.

Firstly, my non-tax planning work is your bog standard compliance work.  Hardly going to link that to clients outcome.  Based on how long will take to do the job on review of the accounting records using my hourly charge and adding on a bit for overrun.

Secondly, how i have done so well to date is that i can relate well with clients, build up a rapport, show how I can assist them etc, etc.  Comes down to old fashioned interpersonal skills.  Out of all the prospectives I have met to date I have signed up everyone with the exception of one who was a subbie but wanted his accounts done for vitually nothing.  He said he has a quote of £100 from someone else so said good luck with your business and bon voyage.

Like most i am losing the will to live with this thread and struggling now to even follow it.

One question Bob, nice and simple one, how many clients have you got up and running and paying at the moment under the franchise umbrella.  If you dont want to say thats fine.

Regards

Mark

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Locutus of Borg
By Locutus
11th Nov 2012 20:49

So are we management consultants now?

"@0103953 – perhaps the issue isn't VP but (using your words) you not knowing enough to be able to advise on how to improve their profits."

I think I understand the concept of VP, so yes the problem is how to deliver it for my client base.

The clients come to small accountancy practices primarily to look after their compliance needs.  It's what we do.  It's what we've been trained for.  Around a decade ago the firm I worked for joined Paul Dunn's Results Accountants Network.  We dropped timesheets, did fixed service agreements, ditched our "E" clients, re-branded ourselves and got a couple of clients interested in the profit improvement thing, charging a premium fee for it.

Whilst it was an interesting journey the problem was we couldn't really apply it the profit improvement / value pricing thing to our real world.  The problem we kept coming back to was that our clients were coming to us for a compliance service and a little business advice on the side.  That's all they wanted and all they were prepared to pay for.  Other clients were just too small to even think of profit improvement strategies, as the likely gains were too marginal.

The few we did do it for, the clients were unsure (in truth as was I) the extent to which our work had improved profit.  They paid but stopped the process after one year.  In their eyes profit improved.  Job done.  Thank you very much, we'll carry on from here.

We weren't alone - RAN said the vast majority of firms couldn't do it properly.

Getting rid of the crap clients is great, ditching timesheets works in some ways, having a new logo and bowl of sweets in reception doesn't really do much for anyone.

Anyway, the firm I worked for went into decline, I and a couple of others lost our jobs and the firm has never really recovered since.  I don't think the whole RAN experience caused the decline as such, but it wasn't a magical solution to the firm's underlying problems either.

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Replying to WhichTyler:
By ShirleyM
11th Nov 2012 20:59

Your words ring a bell

0103953 wrote:

"@0103953 – perhaps the issue isn't VP but (using your words) you not knowing enough to be able to advise on how to improve their profits."

We weren't alone - RAN said the vast majority of firms couldn't do it properly.

I remember hearing something similar about the accountants that used 'More software'.

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By petersaxton
11th Nov 2012 20:51

Still making it up?

"What I don't understand is buying a book and not reading it."

I said I'd read some of it. 

What I don't understand is somebody reading a book but not understanding it. That seems to be your situation when you refuse to explain value pricing and just refer people to the book.

 

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By petersaxton
11th Nov 2012 20:54

Well I never

"Anyway, the firm I worked for went into decline, I and a couple of others lost our jobs and the firm has never really recovered since.  I don't think the whole RAN experience caused the decline as such, but it wasn't a magical solution to the firm's underlying problems either."

Sounds like More Software and Crunchers!

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Man of Kent
By Kent accountant
11th Nov 2012 21:06

@Bob

Fixed fees always apart from consultancy work when its sometimes a day rate.

Yes I might be leaving something on the table but its leading to a steady flow of referrals.

Clients are happy and I'm happy.

Not everything is about money.

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By Bob Harper
11th Nov 2012 21:08

RAN

@0103953 - that's a really interesting experience - I've come across it before and I wonder if that is quite common.

Personally, I am not sure it is worth trying to change an established firm. There is value in the practice that should be protected so I'd now recommend setting up a new brand.

Many firms buy added-value products and try to "add" them on top of what they do but they need to change what they do. 

I also think accountants expect clients to pay too much for business advice.

Does that ring any bells?

Bob

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Locutus of Borg
By Locutus
11th Nov 2012 21:10

I'd never heard of More Software, but now found it on AWeb

https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/anyanswers/more-software-liquidation

 

"No MOREBob Harper PM | Thu, 08/10/2009 - 11:50 | Permalink

MORE has been withdrawn from the market and Free Bookkeeping Software Ltd has been set-up to support the accountants who participated and their clients so that no one is disturbed. 

Despite successes, the MORE strategy seems to be too extreme for the majority of firms.  Turning large fees clients away to work exclusively on micro and small clients, sacking clients, investing unpaid time upfront and being focussed on one strategy is not what the majority of accountants will do.

Consequently, this is my last post here so I wish everyone well." [my bold]

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By petersaxton
11th Nov 2012 21:10

Exactly

“The clients come to small accountancy practices primarily to look after their compliance needs.  It's what we do.  It's what we've been trained for.”

I trained with Ernst & Young and they would charge £5k for work I would do for £1k. They were obviously a bigger firm than me but other firms feel that they could pretend to be a bigger firm than what they are and maybe get away with charging £3k. With businesses of a certain size it is possible to give useful advice and charge thousands but with small businesses we can offer some advice without charging extra given we see things while doing compliance work. We are unlikely to know more about the client's market but have the advantage of wide experience and a greater perspective.

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By Bob Harper
11th Nov 2012 21:11

Day Rate

@Kent - if you don't price based on time/cost how come you have a day rate?

Bob

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Replying to GW:
Man of Kent
By Kent accountant
11th Nov 2012 21:41

Fixed fee

Bob Harper wrote:

@Kent - if you don't price based on time/cost how come you have a day rate?

Bob

Its what the client wants:)

Might be 9-5, sometimes 8-6 maybe even 9.30-4.30.

You get the idea though, the price is fixed, so the client knows up front what he's paying.

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By Bob Harper
11th Nov 2012 21:15

MORE

@0103953 - the software company is not the success the firms that deployed it properly and still use it but it does explain why we use other software alongside MORE in Crunchers.

Bob

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