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What are your views on an independent Scotland?

What are your views on an independent Scotland?

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Taxes in Scotland could rise by £1,000 per person per year if it leaves the UK, a British government minister has claimed. The Scottish government has dismissed the figures and said that an independent Scotland would create a more prosperous and fairer society. 

What do you think? And what could an independent Scotland mean for the accountancy profession?

Replies (140)

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By exceljockey
27th Nov 2013 11:13

I think it will be better for both England and Scotland

As I think it will leave politicians in Westminster and Holyrood to decide whats best for either country.

I recently read an article on BBC in which they mentioned that should Scotland choose independence then it would make life difficult for the LAbour party in England and that they would have to tailor their policies in Eng to more specific English issues. This would then hopefully keep the Cons on their toes. 

As for the effect on the Accounting profession I am not sure there would be much change. They currently have their own highly regarded institute and I am sure accounting policies would mirror those of England as the trend is for international convergence. However if there are practices out there who have clients in both countries keeping staff up to date in two different tax codes and company law codes (Company law may already be different in Scotland - I don't have any Scottish clients so I am not sure) may get expensive over time.

I think it is a great opportunity for Scotland as long a their politicians are doing it for the right reasons and are not simply jumping onto a popularist bandwagon. (not suggesting they are - but there is a danger this may be the case).

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By BKD
27th Nov 2013 11:40

It's an academic question

Because it's unlikely to happen. Forget the opinion polls, what the media say, and claims by the respective camps - speak to real people and, unless there were to be a sea-change, a vote today would result in an overwhelming no.

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Replying to sharonsmith05:
Me!
By nigelburge
27th Nov 2013 12:01

I don't know who you have been speaking to....

BKD wrote:

Because it's unlikely to happen. Forget the opinion polls, what the media say, and claims by the respective camps - speak to real people and, unless there were to be a sea-change, a vote today would result in an overwhelming no.

But unless you confine your conversations to the Glasgow area and/or believe the opinion polls which are weighted using results from the Westminster election, you may be surprised that more and more "real" people are deciding that Scotland would be better off deciding its own future rather than leaving it to a Government some 600 miles away.

Far from being an academic question, it is becoming  more and more likely as the weeks pass. That is why Westminster and the MSM is becoming more and more shrill - Aw ye cannae dae that!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Me!
By nigelburge
27th Nov 2013 11:55

"Taxes in Scotland could rise by £1,000"

And Taxes in Scotland could fall by £1,000. And Alistair Darling's eyebrows might explode!!

The producer of this silly report is funded by the Westminster government - what else do you expect them to say? (Hint - don't believe what you hear on the BBC.)

Turn it all round and ask why on earth would a currently independent Scotland want to go into a union with England ruled by Westminster mainly for the benefit of the South-east.

I am an Englishman living in Scotland and I shall certainly be voting Yes as shall many if not most of the Englishmen by birth who live in Scotland.

Unfortunately for "Call Me Dave" and the rest of the Westminster gravy-trainers (including most of the Scottish Labour MPs), Project Fear (their own description) is starting to fall apart.

If any of you want to read relatively unbiased commentary on this issue from a point of view rarely seen in the English press, have a look at http://www.newsnetscotland.com/  You may find it very interesting.

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By The Innkeeper
27th Nov 2013 12:02

Frankly

I live in London this matter is so fundamental why don't I have a vote on the break up of the union

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Replying to chrisacc1985:
Me!
By nigelburge
27th Nov 2013 12:08

Yes - why don't you.

The Innkeeper wrote:

I live in London this matter is so fundamental why don't I have a vote on the break up of the union

I agree - it is very unfair on England.

The trouble is that you have all been fed so much rubbish over the years that Scotland is a drain on the UK that it is extremely likely that England that would vote to become independent from Scotland. And "Call Me Dave" and his cohorts wouldn't like that, so they most certainly won't be giving you the chance to express your views.

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Me!
By nigelburge
27th Nov 2013 12:04

Oh and another thing

Independence might actually produce a real Labour party in Scotland giving us a real choice at elections.

 

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By The Innkeeper
27th Nov 2013 12:09

@ nigelburge

and we may get a proper Tory Government in Westminster

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
Me!
By nigelburge
27th Nov 2013 12:22

@The Inkeeper

The Innkeeper wrote:

and we may get a proper Tory Government in Westminster

It really does seem to be a no-brainer doesn't it. Dissolve the Union and both Scotland and England&Wales get to decide on how they want to be governed.

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By The Innkeeper
27th Nov 2013 12:10

and while we are on it

why do the Welsh and Scottish MPs who sit at Westminster have a vote on devolved matters

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
Me!
By nigelburge
27th Nov 2013 12:19

I agree - it is wrong.

The Innkeeper wrote:

why do the Welsh and Scottish MPs who sit at Westminster have a vote on devolved matters

However, ALL the SNP MPs refuse to vote on matters solely concerning rUK - in very stark contrast to the Labour and LibDems scottish MPs.

Another reason for the cessation of the Union.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
Red Leader
By Red Leader
27th Nov 2013 12:26

UK ex-Scotland

If Scotland left the UK, this would be an earthquake in the political system.

I'm thinking of the effect on the House of Commons afterwards. Simple arithmetic indicates a big advantage for the Tories. But ... how would the Labour Party react? Would it become more right wing? I don't see how it would have any choice if it wanted to have a chance of getting a majority. Back to Blairism.

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Replying to SteveHa:
Me!
By nigelburge
27th Nov 2013 12:33

@Red Leader

Red Leader wrote:

If Scotland left the UK, 

To be very pedantic - once the Union is dissolved, the UK would cease to exist. 

Originally it was called the "United Kingdoms of England and Scotland" but the "s" got dropped somewhere along the way!

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By ShirleyM
27th Nov 2013 12:27

What would we call ourselves?

We wouldn't be the United Kingdom any longer if Scotland gains independence. I could do without the Kingdom bit myself.

Maybe we will become the UEWNIK - United England, Wales, Northern Ireland Kingdom.

... or UWENIK? ...or UNIWEK? Any more ideas, anyone?

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Replying to Moonbeam:
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By exceljockey
27th Nov 2013 12:34

England

ShirleyM wrote:

We wouldn't be the United Kingdom any longer if Scotland gains independence. I could do without the Kingdom bit myself.

Maybe we will become the UEWNIK - United England, Wales, Northern Ireland Kingdom.

... or UWENIK? ...or UNIWEK? Any more ideas, anyone?

I think Wales and NI should also go their separate ways. I am a great believer in self determination and I think these countries would do well to be outside of the Union and they can make policies that suit them better such as more or less intergration with the EU.

Then we would just be England. 

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Replying to andy.partridge:
Red Leader
By Red Leader
27th Nov 2013 13:18

new name?

The English Empire? or

England And Some Other Bits?

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By swf
27th Nov 2013 13:58

the soft advantages of a fairer split

No one mentions what could be described as the " soft advantages" of independence. 1/ One of our major industries is tourism, its self evident that worldwide you get more publicity being an independent country rather than if you are not, would Oslo Helsinki and Copenhagen get as much tourism if they were all under one country all GB publicity is hovered up by London at the moment 2/ The same applies to inward investment, if no-one has been to Scotland they are unlikely to choose to invest there  3/ We have virtually no airline industry, compared to other small countries we have no national airline, and are not in a position to develop this industry, again look at virtually every other independent country- airlines are big industry-  3/  Media- Do we really get our share of the media, if we contribute 10% to the TV licence do we get to produce 10% of the output- It seams to me that most of the programs are made in London.

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By neiltonks
27th Nov 2013 14:13

Who votes

Giving the Independence vote to whoever happens to live in Scotland at a point in time, regardless of their own background, seems a strange way to decide whether to create a 'Homeland' for the Scottish people.

Many people of Scottish birth who currently live elsewhere in the UK won't get a vote while people from elsewhere in the UK who happen to be living (even transiently) in Scotland will get a say. As a consequence many Scots will be excluded and many English people will be included. It's an odd sort of self-determination!

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By BKD
27th Nov 2013 14:16

I can see one soft advantage

England rugby and football fans would be legitimately able to sing "God Save the Queen" as their national anthem at sporting events.

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Replying to possep:
Me!
By nigelburge
27th Nov 2013 14:26

And............

BKD wrote:

England rugby and football fans would be legitimately able to sing "God Save the Queen" as their national anthem at sporting events.

They could sing that verse about crushing the rebellious Scots as well. :-)

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Me!
By nigelburge
27th Nov 2013 14:25

@neiltonks

How else would you do it?

By birth? How far back?

By time of residence? How far back?

By intention to stay? How would you determine that?

" It's an odd sort of self-determination!" Perhaps. But probably the best that can be done: the people currently residing in Scotland deciding what will happen (in the short term) what happens to the people currently residing in Scotland. 

BTW - I don't ever recall the UK ever allowing people "of UK birth" wherever they were having a vote in any past referendum. The Scottish government are following the many precedents set by the UK government over many years.

Also, I think that you will find that many "English people" living in Scotland regard themselves as more Scottish than English (I do!) and in any event such distinctions are, quite frankly,rather silly. Those that live in a country should have self-determination. 

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By neiltonks
27th Nov 2013 15:17

Not easy!

I accept there's no perfect way of running the referendum, and the Scottish government has to come up with something which is workable in terms of administration.

The situation is that anyone from the EU or Commonwealth who's on the Scottish electoral roll will have a vote. This will probably mean that the losing faction (whichever way the vote goes) will claim the result wasn't a true representation of the views of genuinely 'Scottish' people, because many of the voters weren't really 'Scottish' and many genuine Scots couldn't vote!

One quirk is that members of the armed forces who're on the Scottish electoral roll will be able to vote. Given that one of the things they're generally duty-bound to do is 'defend the Union', surely this puts them in a strange position of theoretically being obliged to vote 'No'? However the secret nature of the vote makes this a moral rather than practical dilemma.

Just a thought - what if Scotland becomes an independent state within the EU and the rest of the UK votes to exit from the EU? Where will that leave us in terms of free movement across the border, and the planned use of Sterling as the currency in both countries?

Interesting times.

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By The Innkeeper
27th Nov 2013 15:23

Pick n'Choose

If the  SNP want to keep the pound ,the BBC ( frankly I would give that to them free) etcWhy do they want independence ??

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Replying to Tim Vane:
Me!
By nigelburge
27th Nov 2013 15:47

Ummmmm

The Innkeeper wrote:

If the SNP want to keep the pound ,the BBC ( frankly I would give that to them free) etc Why do they want independence ??

Freedom to self-determination in every way apart from interest rates in the short term?!!! And not having Gideon and his cohorts ruining our economy - I am sure we can ruin it quite nicely by ourselves thank you!! And that is it, isn't it? Doing things for ourselves. Would you want your everyday life controlled by say Spain which is as far away as Scotland,with the argument being that the UK is too stupid, too small and too poor to govern itself?

I think you will find that it will be rUK that will really want  a currency union. Indeed Alistair Darling has already admitted as much in an unguarded moment. With the stability of the oil reserves, independent commentators have stated that Scotland's currency would be stronger than the rUK's in the long term and even the Macrone report (google it) admitted that back in the '70s.

Westminster poopooing a currency union is just so much more of Project Fear. If they really thought it would be detrimental to rUK, they would have definitively ruled it out long ago but they haven't and have conspicuously avoided doing so to date. It would be in the best interests of both countries to initially have a currency union and Westminster knows that only too well.

BTW Any country can use the pound if they wish and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Currency union is of course a different matter.

As to those leeches at the BBC, I personally hope we leave them behind - a truly dreadful bunch.

Oh and please don't confuse the SNP/Alex Salmond with voting for independence. Independence will give us the choice to elect the government of our choice and that may well not be the SNP.

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Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
27th Nov 2013 15:59

I am non decider

Hi I am non decider with a SNP councillor as a husband and being Irish. 

  I do not know whether I want independence.   I love England ,  Wales and N Ireland.   On one hand we have plenty who say we are better together in a healthy way and I like those people, and then on the other hand I pick up the paper at we are drain on society we cost the UK millions. We won,t have pensions extra extra.  

What does not add up,  is these stories are coming from the PRO Union Parties.  So it does not add up.   If Scotland was such a drain on the society the Pro Union parties would make the best business decision like tories do and dump us fast really fast. 

    There are a lot of decisions that could be made in N Ireland , Scotland and Wales that would suit their economies better.     I would have preferred to be voting on DEVO MAX .       On one hand  I want to vote for Independence in boldness mainly  for the way the PRO Union parties have continually attacked Scottish people with their insults.  I thought the reason they wanted us to stay together was because they liked us.  Who wants to hold on to losers that we all are according to both Tories and Labour ( and that is coming from an Irish Person ) .    There are drains on society up and down the country.  I do believe very strongly in Scotland and I think it is a great country.

  I believe in each country being very proud of their heritage and I would prefer that was done in a union. 

   I have tried to come up with some  theories as to why CALL ME DAVE who has less MPs then PANDA's in Scotland wants to keep Scotland.    Never mind the oil I think he is after the water for London area and Greater in the future as it allways rains in Scotland. In the future there will be water pipes from the North to the South.   At the moment Scotland is rising above sea level and England is going further below.  Perhaps CALL ME DAVE is planning for ENGLAND survival over the next 500 years.  My theory is not impossible has England is already tapping into the Welsh Water I have being listening to a debates about this.   Maybe the pipes are already being built   ( Last bit is in jest )

The Union could become like a large Berlin with Pink Pipes which I like and we could pick nice colours going through different parts of the country. 

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Replying to paulwakefield1:
Me!
By nigelburge
27th Nov 2013 15:59

Devo Max

sarah douglas wrote:

 I would have preferred to be voting on DEVO MAX .  

You and probably 95% of the population of Scotland including myself. The trouble is that Call Me Dave knew full well that DevoMax would win hands down and therefore he and his cronies ruled it out at the beginning as an option in the referendum. At least there is a sporting chance of a no vote  but there would have been no chance of a no vote against DevoMax.

At the very least one would have thought that the government of the day would have a passing interest in doing what 95% of the people want - but Westminster clearly has no interest at all. The Tories see their little dreams of Empire fading and the Scottish Labour lot see their troughing/HoL seat going.

As to the Liberals!! Well, one would have thought that for a party who have espoused home rule for Scotland for decades (or so they say) to not argue for devomax is a betrayal of everything they have stood for...... Oh hang on....................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now can you see why the SNP have a majority in a Parliament that was rigged by Westminster so that no party could get a majority. There is simply no other choice for most people.

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Replying to paulwakefield1:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
27th Nov 2013 17:25

Water water everywhere

sarah douglas wrote:

   I have tried to come up with some  theories as to why CALL ME DAVE who has less MPs then PANDA's in Scotland wants to keep Scotland.    Never mind the oil I think he is after the water for London area and Greater in the future as it allways rains in Scotland. In the future there will be water pipes from the North to the South.   At the moment Scotland is rising above sea level and England is going further below.  Perhaps CALL ME DAVE is planning for ENGLAND survival over the next 500 years.  My theory is not impossible has England is already tapping into the Welsh Water I have being listening to a debates about this.   Maybe the pipes are already being built   ( Last bit is in jest )

The Union could become like a large Berlin with Pink Pipes which I like and we could pick nice colours going through different parts of the country. 

I read an article a few months ago suggesting that future world conflicts will be about water not oil.

There have also been stories circulating (albeit always of a someone knows someone type) of some Middle Eastern interests making enquiries about water rich Estates in Scotland with a view to using tankers to export the water to the Middle East.

So Scotland, the country to buy whisky from and we can also sell you the water to go with it. (One measure whisky/ third measure water)

 

DJKL

Edinburgh

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Replying to WhichTyler:
Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
28th Nov 2013 10:47

Well you do have to wonder about water

   I have read that also .  The Welsh are not happy about the water being tapped into.

 

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paddle steamer
By DJKL
27th Nov 2013 16:16

Independence could have its upside!!

As I have already advised my wife, she does not appear to have one drop of English blood in her (Scots/Irish) whilst my Father was English and my Mother Scottish. Accordingly once the big fence/wall gets resurrected, the children and I ought to be able to move South but we will likely have to leave her behind.

Whilst not impacting myself there has already been discussion up here of a property boom in Berwick/ Northumbria etc with high net worth individuals thinking about buying property just over the border in case personal taxes  were to increase;. we could have a low corporate tax high personal tax economy.

However I do not sense much of an appetite for independence and will be very surprised by a YES vote, however I would not be surprised with genuine tax devolution post the vote. 

 

DJKL

Edinburgh 

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By B Roberts
27th Nov 2013 16:28

I am not familiar ....
... with the intricacies of Devo Max etc. but it seems to me that this is an extension of the SNP approach of wanting the good bits but not the bad bits !

eg. we keep hearing about North Sea Oil tax revenues, but not so much about how much of the National Debt they will take.

How will the NHS in Scotland work / be funded ?

How will their defence / Army work / be funded ?

Even basics such as currency should have been ironed out by this stage, but it looks as though the SNP are changing their mind (it wasn't long ago that they wanted the Euro, but now they want to keep Sterling ?).

I understand the emotional attraction to this, but do people is Scotland really believe that they would have a standing on the international stage if they were a stand alone country ?

It is going to be interesting. If the electorate vote to remain within the UK then the power of the SNP will be massively diminished.

Whatever the result, the result needs to be the result and to put the issue to bed.

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paddle steamer
By DJKL
27th Nov 2013 17:04

World Stage Standing not down to size

There are quite a few times when it might have been helpful if the UK had not has a standing in the world. 

There are countries in Scandinavia who maybe don't have a great international presence but are respected for their technical excellence in certain industries. (my neighbour in Sweden is being courted by both German and Norwegian Nuclear facilities to assist with refurbishment)

Having a world standing can work against countries, the UK carries a fair bit of historical baggage which may require to be overcome to win business abroad.

Like a fair number of people in Scotland I do not favour independence, I am not convinced the initial change would  be that comfortable ,albeit in the long term it may be what Scotland needs. However given I likely only have ten more working years, post the vote, I view the possible outcome from a somewhat selfish viewpoint; how will it impact on my life, on the value of my house etc.

DJKL

Edinburgh

 

 

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Replying to SDGREEN:
Me!
By nigelburge
27th Nov 2013 17:18

Many thanks for your honesty.

DJKL wrote:

Like a fair number of people in Scotland I do not favour independence, I am not convinced the initial change would  be that comfortable ,albeit in the long term it may be what Scotland needs. However given I likely only have ten more working years, post the vote, I view the possible outcome from a somewhat selfish viewpoint; how will it impact on my life, on the value of my house etc.

It is indeed refreshing amongst the waffle of the BT crew. Most people approach matters from a selfish viewpoint but sometimes looking to better future for their children and possible them as well outweighs that.

I am sure that that "the initial change would  not be that comfortable", change never is, but sometimes hope has to triumph over fear especially if that fear is being sown by those who have a vested interested making people afraid of change.

You never know, you might be pleasantly surprised to find that life in an Independent Scotland (even in Edinburgh!!) is a lot better for you than the alternative. We shall see!

Off to have my tea now - fed up with counteracting FUD - Haha.

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Replying to CB2:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
27th Nov 2013 17:54

My selfish genes are also realistic genes

nigelburge wrote:

DJKL wrote:

Like a fair number of people in Scotland I do not favour independence, I am not convinced the initial change would  be that comfortable ,albeit in the long term it may be what Scotland needs. However given I likely only have ten more working years, post the vote, I view the possible outcome from a somewhat selfish viewpoint; how will it impact on my life, on the value of my house etc.

It is indeed refreshing amongst the waffle of the BT crew. Most people approach matters from a selfish viewpoint but sometimes looking to better future for their children and possible them as well outweighs that.

I am sure that that "the initial change would  not be that comfortable", change never is, but sometimes hope has to triumph over fear especially if that fear is being sown by those who have a vested interested making people afraid of change.

You never know, you might be pleasantly surprised to find that life in an Independent Scotland (even in Edinburgh!!) is a lot better for you than the alternative. We shall see!

Off to have my tea now - fed up with counteracting FUD - Haha.

I don't think my fears are unfounded, Scotland has a deep socialist tradition which will haunt any government if independence occurs.

There is as times an unthinking voting mindest which gives rise to the belief that you could put a monkey up for election in parts of Glasgow and if it had a red tie it would likely get elected.

Yes, the SNP have wrenched some traditional labour votes away, but their allure will likely diminish post independence:- what are the SNP, a party of the left, a party of the right, a mid party who currently try to appeal to all voters as this is what they need to do to win independence. What form of government will we have to endure post independence, I strongly suspect socialist, just the people to kick start a tiger economy, we can then lead the world in the production of red tape.

I think independence will give rise to 30-50 years of economic uncertainty and problems with national debt, we will have swings of exuberance and then market collapse throughout the process. In the long term, 50-80 years from now, maybe we will have a dynamic economy with a highly skilled and technical workforce, we may get ourselves back up the league tables with regard to engineering and science, but I suspect the benificaries will not be my children, nor my grandchildren but my great grandchildren.

From an Edinburgh perspective the only people who appear to have an affluent lifestyle are those involved in finance, there is no incentive to stay here if your interests are in the sciences. My son ought to graduate in computer science next June, I think there is an 80% chance he will be living outside Scotland within 2 years,. There is something really weak lurking within the Scottish economy, once you strip out Oil, Finance, Tourism, Agriculture and some computer based industries, what is left? Retail and services which only survive on the back of these other activities.

This is not fear but realism, what do we actually make?

DJKL

Edinburgh

p.s. look at the tidings of woe when Grangemouth was to be closed, the perceived effect on the entire economy of that single facility. Look at our leaders expenditure on Prestwick recently, purchasing a pig in a poke, the problem it has is simple: location, location, location

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Me!
By nigelburge
27th Nov 2013 17:07

@B Roberts

B Roberts wrote:
... with the intricacies of Devo Max etc. but it seems to me that this is an extension of the SNP approach of wanting the good bits but not the bad bits !  
 But of course!The SNP were elected by the Scottish people to represent the Scottish people. What else do you expect?  
Quote:
 eg. we keep hearing about North Sea Oil tax revenues, but not so much about how much of the National Debt they will take.  
 This will be decided by negociation between the Scottish and English governments. Do you really expect any firm figures now when Westminster steadfastly refuses to discuss it?Of course if Westminster refuses to negociate and insists on being the continuing state, then Scotland is not legally obliged to take any of the debt. So that is why Westminster will have to negotiate. They don't tell you that in the MSM do they?!   
Quote:
  How will the NHS in Scotland work / be funded ?  
 Ummm. The same as it is now. You did know that NHS Scotland is totally separate from NHS England didn't you? (Thank the good Lord)   
Quote:
How will their defence / Army work / be funded ?  
  It is all in the white paper here http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/11/9348/10 
Quote:
   Even basics such as currency should have been ironed out by this stage, 
 I agree, but with Westminster totally refusing to enter into ANY discussions with the Scottish Goverment, that is a wee bit difficult.They have been asked but no, heads in sand job. 
Quote:
  but it looks as though the SNP are changing their mind (it wasn't long ago that they wanted the Euro, but now they want to keep Sterling ?). 
 Would you like to provide a factual link to that or is it just what you have read in the MSM?  
Quote:
 I understand the emotional attraction to this, but do people is Scotland really believe that they would have a standing on the international stage if they were a stand alone country ? 
 Good God YES!!!!!!!  We cannot have less than we have now which is zero!  
Quote:
 It is going to be interesting. If the electorate vote to remain within the UK then the power of the SNP will be massively diminished.  
 Oh dear. If there is a no vote the SNP is likely to be in power for a very, very long time.There really is no other party actively representing Scotland rather than just doing what their masters at Westminster tell them. If there is a yes vote, other parties will arise and are likely to take the SNP's place.  I do appreciate that you are viewing all this from a very Anglocentric view but not all you hear emanating from Westminster is true.  May I respectfully suggest that you actually READ the white paper which can be found at http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/11/9348/0 rather than indulging in a lot of whatifery. It isn't that long and is very interesting. Unfortunately to date, most of the Westminster politicians who have been spouting off in the last 24 hours clearly have not bothered to read it and are just continuing with the old Project Fear. As I said earlier though, people are beginning to see that for what it is - just sowing FUD. Regards,
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By JC
28th Nov 2013 09:04

Wasn't The Act of Union 1707 a bailout?

In the first place over the Darien Scheme to the tune of just short of £400k in 1707

and compounded at 5% for 305 odd years = £1,155,099,214,189

The devils in the detail

EDIT

Here is an historic thread/post -

https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/article/scots-tax-plans-under-fire/52820...

https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/article/scots-tax-plans-under-fire/52820...

 

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Glenn Martin
By Glenn Martin
27th Nov 2013 21:50

I think it will be a bad thing.
I would be surprised if many Scottish people would want it either, at present they get free university placements and free care for the elderly these are both hot topics and would disappear if budgets were tightened. How could they raise an army? I understand that Alex Salmond wants to join the euro, well good luck with that. On the plus side if they do go Independant we could rebuild hadrians wall and provide some much needed construction jobs for up us Geordies.

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By B Roberts
28th Nov 2013 09:49

@nigelburge
I will not dissect your post and reply to each individual point that you have made.

If you believe that an independent Scotland could provide free childcare, free school meals, free University education, free prescriptions, increase healthcare for the elderly etc. etc. whilst at the same time reducing taxes then crack on - it will be interesting to watch.

At the same time you are assuming that key decisions (eg. joining NATO, joining the EU, retaining sterling etc.) will be purely down to your own discretion - don't you think that other parties would / should also want a say in this ?

As I said in my previous post, it seems to me that the Scottish Nationalists want to take all of the good bits, but don't want any of the bad bits - I can't exactly blame them for that, but it does sound a bit naïve / playground approach rather than a sensible approach to running an independent country.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
Me!
By nigelburge
28th Nov 2013 10:12

@ B

B Roberts wrote:
I will not dissect your post and reply to each individual point that you have made. If you believe that an independent Scotland could provide free childcare, free school meals, free University education, free prescriptions, increase healthcare for the elderly etc. etc. whilst at the same time reducing taxes then crack on - it will be interesting to watch.

It may well be that taxes may have to rise but I would rather have a choice as to my taxes going on free childcare, free school meals, free University education, free prescriptions, increase healthcare for the elderly etc. than on Trident and foreign wars and aggrandisement. Independence will mean that we will have that choice unlike England which seems to be stuck with it.

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At the same time you are assuming that key decisions (eg. joining NATO, joining the EU, retaining sterling etc.) will be purely down to your own discretion.- don't you think that other parties would / should also want a say in this ?

Ummm - with great respect NO. Read through my previous posts and you will see that these matters will be by negotiation between two independent states - hardly anything novel there.

Oh and BTW - Scotland and England are already in the EU as part of the UK. There is no provision in EU law to expel any state. When the UK ceases to exist, do you really think that the EU will expel Scotland but retain England. As I have said before - please don't believe what you read in the press and just regurgitate it - find out the facts for yourself - they are all out there and not hard to find.

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 As I said in my previous post, it seems to me that the Scottish Nationalists want to take all of the good bits, but don't want any of the bad bits - I can't exactly blame them for that, but it does sound a bit naïve / playground approach rather than a sensible approach to running an independent country.

Ah - the too stupid approach. At least we haven't had the too poor and too wee approach as well - Sorry B - just couldn't resist that one but most Scots are truly fed up to the back teeth by being told by well-meaning but not very well-informed people that Awwww  Ye canna dae that!!

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By Alan Ferris
28th Nov 2013 10:30

You can do that

Nobody is telling you that you cannot do that, but they are asking for a realistic approach.  Is it right to deny the independant fiscal reviews?  Is it right to claim you will retain something when it does rely on negotiation between states?  The white paper is high on promises and carries little facts.

I for one would vote to be independant, but not on the grounds provided in the white paper, so why do we not have the real facts presented?

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Replying to Wanderer:
Me!
By nigelburge
28th Nov 2013 11:03

@Alan

Alan Ferris wrote:

Nobody is telling you that you cannot do that, but they are asking for a realistic approach.

It seems to me that the current approach is about as realistic as it can be under the current circumstances. What else do you suggest?

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Is it right to deny the independent fiscal reviews?

No of course not and no-one is denying independent fiscal reviews. The trouble is that the fiscal reviews emanating from Westminster are anything but independent. Do you know of any truly independent fiscal reviews that have been "denied"? Do please provide details - I would be very interested to learn of them and will certainly ask why.

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Is it right to claim you will retain something when it does rely on negotiation between states?

Again - of course not. I am not aware of any claim to retain anything which in fact will rely on negociation. If you know of any instances of this, do please provide details - again, I would be very interested indeed to learn of them.

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The white paper is high on promises and carries little facts.

Much like a party manifesto in fact, which of course is exactly what it is.

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I for one would vote to be independant, but not on the grounds provided in the white paper, so why do we not have the real facts presented?

What "real facts" do you want presented that are not already available with a wee bit of googling and research? Again, what do think is being kept from you?

Incidentally, on what grounds would you vote to be independent? I would be very interested to know.

Regards,

Nigel from Skye

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Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
28th Nov 2013 11:16

I agree about Devo Max

Hi 

Devo Max, would have allowed Scotland to set its own tax rates  and they would have to live within the budget .  Call Me Dave never wanted to give Scotland that chance to prove that it  may work , potentially for all 4 countries.  

Instead Dave Cameron decided to take the options and say  look at me I am the big man and watch me over a spate of 2 years with the help of the labour and the Liberals party slowly drip feed and demoralise the Scottish people and their businesses across the world. 

They said the debate had to stop and I don,t disagree with that but Devo Max would have been a way forward to see if something different could have worked and then had the debate.  Coming from Ireland a lot of mistakes could be avoided that the Irish made in the 70's and 80's.

What I really do not understand is Dave Cameron should be proud of all four nations and not trying to demoralise them .  He does a good job demoralising the North of England as well.

Yes he may well win and it looks like he probably will.    But I feel there are no winners here at all.  As I said in the flying Scotmans blog.  Where I live I am left with the Liberals , labour and Conservatives who think it is okay to post letters in my postbox against Drumchapel children, and say that they should not be in the schools of the wealthy part of Bearsden , East Dunbartonshire.   How can you discriminate against children and think that is okay, and that the Union is better for the whole of the UK .  I would like us to stay united but something needs to change. 

Yes I want DEVO Max back on the table 

 

 

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By andy.partridge
28th Nov 2013 11:16

Please vote 'yes'

It's time the tail stopped wagging the dog.

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By Octopus
28th Nov 2013 11:18

One figure I haven't seen

although I admit I haven't bothered to look very hard, is what proportion of the national debt Scotland will take with it when it leaves the Union. A large part of the UK's national debt is due to the money spent supporting Scotland. So presumably an independent Scotland is going to start life heavily in debt. Given previous voting patterns it is also fairy obvious that "Conservative England" is going to end up with the "Socialist Republic of Scotland" on it's borders. Hardly a recipe for cooperation between governments.

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Replying to Tornado:
Me!
By nigelburge
28th Nov 2013 11:33

The old chestnuts are the best!

Octopus wrote:

although I admit I haven't bothered to look very hard, is what proportion of the national debt Scotland will take with it when it leaves the Union.

Plenty of information about this if you bother to look. But in the final event, it will be down to negotiation. Unfortunately, since Westminster refuses to discuss this in advance, we are no further forward. Why not lobby your own MP on this matter?

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A large part of the UK's national debt is due to the money spent supporting Scotland. So presumably an independent Scotland is going to start life heavily in debt.

Oh dear, oh dear!! This is an absolute fiction and the published facts simply do not bear this out. Go and look for yourself. This fiction has been used by Westminster governments for decades to keep the sweaty jocks in order. Please don't believe what you read in the press (how many more times?!) - go and find out for yourself rather than just regurgitating "received wisdom" from the Daily Mail.

Why on earth do you think Westminster is so desperate to keep Scotland - you surely don't believe it is out of the goodness of their hearts?

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Given previous voting patterns it is also fairy obvious that "Conservative England" is going to end up with the "Socialist Republic of Scotland" on it's borders. Hardly a recipe for cooperation between governments.

And this is why you want to keep the UK? Because the north of England might look north and say to themselves - why? Now you really are just being silly. :-)

Also the facts do not bear you out. NO UK election has ever been decided solely on the basis of the numbers of Labour Scottish MPs - EVER. If you don't believe me - go away and look it up. File that one under BT scare stories and myths - a very large tome indeed and becoming larger by the day.

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Replying to Tim Vane:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
28th Nov 2013 14:32

What about 1974 then ?

nigelburge wrote:

Octopus wrote:

although I admit I haven't bothered to look very hard, is what proportion of the national debt Scotland will take with it when it leaves the Union.

Plenty of information about this if you bother to look. But in the final event, it will be down to negotiation. Unfortunately, since Westminster refuses to discuss this in advance, we are no further forward. Why not lobby your own MP on this matter?

Quote:

A large part of the UK's national debt is due to the money spent supporting Scotland. So presumably an independent Scotland is going to start life heavily in debt.

Oh dear, oh dear!! This is an absolute fiction and the published facts simply do not bear this out. Go and look for yourself. This fiction has been used by Westminster governments for decades to keep the sweaty jocks in order. Please don't believe what you read in the press (how many more times?!) - go and find out for yourself rather than just regurgitating "received wisdom" from the Daily Mail.

Why on earth do you think Westminster is so desperate to keep Scotland - you surely don't believe it is out of the goodness of their hearts?

Quote:

Given previous voting patterns it is also fairy obvious that "Conservative England" is going to end up with the "Socialist Republic of Scotland" on it's borders. Hardly a recipe for cooperation between governments.

And this is why you want to keep the UK? Because the north of England might look north and say to themselves - why? Now you really are just being silly. :-)

Also the facts do not bear you out. NO UK election has ever been decided solely on the basis of the numbers of Labour Scottish MPs - EVER. If you don't believe me - go away and look it up. File that one under BT scare stories and myths - a very large tome indeed and becoming larger by the day.

 

Are you sure?

Just checked online:

In  the second 1974 General election there were 635 seats, labour won 319, an overall majority  of three.

There were 71 Scottish seats, Labour won 41

 

So if you recalculate excluding Scotland you get Labour 278 (319-41), total 564 (635-71), not a majority as they needed 283.

DJKL

 

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Replying to I'm Chuck Bass:
Me!
By nigelburge
28th Nov 2013 14:55

@DJKL

My apologies, you are of course absolutely right.

I should have said, no UK election has been decided on the basis of Scottish MPs.

In 1974, Scotland returned quite a lot of Tories - how things have changed. :-)

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Replying to Tornado:
Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
28th Nov 2013 11:40

@Partridge

Hi 

Why be so rude.  There are many Scots who want to be part of the UK and like myself  have many friends in the whole of the UK.  There are hundreds of people all over the UK draining the system.  Were here to discuss the future for generations to come for all of the UK.

 

 Perhaps if you bothered to find out about life in Scotland you would learn a lot more .  Take a look at the pictures around the time of the Olympics in Scotland and will see the love Scotland had for Britain and all the British flags.  Funny none of the political parties and I mean all  and their media cronies wanted you to see that side of Scotland. Which goes hand in hand with being a proud Scottish person or Irish person living in Scotland .   Our we as the UK going to let the media destroy the UK and play us off against each other.  Surely as business men and women we are more intelligent then that.

 

As I stated before I want to UK to stay together.  As I stated before I like people who believe we are better together and who want to work together 

 

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By peaky99
28th Nov 2013 11:38

Alex Salmon with SNP members in the EU Parliament has worked out that the EU is more important than the UK with increasing Euro integration after the Lisbon Treaty and now wants to cut out the UK middleman. Is the question really how Scotland will fare in the EU ? Scotland will still need to comply with eu law which affects the a/c prof.

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Me!
By nigelburge
28th Nov 2013 11:43

In case you are all wondering

why I am posting so much on this - it is because the amount of dis-information about Scotland out there is truly stupendous.

Let us all have the facts out in the open and then we will all have the best chance of making a truly informed choice. as of course we all do (I hope) in our professional work.

Many wish to bury simple facts and it is just plain wrong to see so many untruths being bandied about as received wisdom.

PLEASE don't believe what you all read in the main stream media but go and find out the facts for yourselves and then make your own minds up.

If once you have and still can make a coherent argument for continuing the Union, then all well and good as at least one honest poster from Edinburgh has done. I will most heartily salute you for it. Andy P has set out his view and that is great - if you agree with him then just say so. Don't hide behind a lot of "opinion".

And yes, my work output is suffering but IMHO - well worth it to correct such mis-information

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Replying to DJKL:
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By andy.partridge
28th Nov 2013 12:25

Trouble is . .

[quote=nigelburge]

Let us all have the facts out in the open and then we will all have the best chance of making a truly informed choice. as of course we all do (I hope) in our professional work.

/quote]

There are few facts available. 'Facts' are opinion dressed up as facts to suit the vested interest. Facts in the modern world are dead and buried. My advice is to go with your gut feel. I believe strongly in the right to self-determination. For England too. The bribe from both sides about the economic advantage should be largely irrelevant if self-determination is important.  

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