What are your views on an independent Scotland?

What are your views on an independent Scotland?

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Taxes in Scotland could rise by £1,000 per person per year if it leaves the UK, a British government minister has claimed. The Scottish government has dismissed the figures and said that an independent Scotland would create a more prosperous and fairer society. 

What do you think? And what could an independent Scotland mean for the accountancy profession?

Replies (140)

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Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
28th Nov 2013 12:12

@nigel

I am sorry in advance for this comment but I feel very strongly about this issue .  I agree with you on most points, except Andy P's .  I have no problem that he want Scotland to vote yes as that is an opinion .  Like you I want people to make informed decisions but a least if you are going to put a comment like Andy's have the guts to state why.  

It is really easy to be smart and witty with one liners as no one can comment because they do not know the thought or reasons of the poster to have a good discussion. Maybe twitter is a better place for short comments .   

Edit : Please see my thanks to Andy below on re reading my comment above  was very harsh and not helpful to a good discussion.

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Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
28th Nov 2013 12:04

Thank you Andy

I now can see and understand where you comments are coming from.  Sorry if I was harsh .

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By User deleted
28th Nov 2013 12:21

Taxpayer Scotland ...

@nigelburge

http://www.taxpayerscotland.com/

Whilst the following article is a couple of years old - has much changed since in the interim?

However, it does discuss the issue of Scotlands debt in all it's different forms and is a balanced view on the problems

http://www.taxpayerscotland.com/news/StateofScotland_Debt_Jan2012.pdf

In one sense this is as close to 'the facts' as one is likely to get

'.. In summary, our estimate is that an autonomous Scotland’s real deficit is much nearer to 30% than 15% suggested by the GERS figures. In addition, Scotland’s ability to cope with further economic shocks with its present propensity to state spending is highly limited ..'

'.. We need a reality check – our debts are too high and unsustainable ..'

 

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Replying to SteveHa:
Me!
By nigelburge
28th Nov 2013 12:58

Thanks for that JC

JC wrote:

@nigelburge

http://www.taxpayerscotland.com/

Whilst the following article is a couple of years old - has much changed since in the interim?

However, it does discuss the issue of Scotlands debt in all it's different forms and is a balanced view on the problems

http://www.taxpayerscotland.com/news/StateofScotland_Debt_Jan2012.pdf

In one sense this is as close to 'the facts' as one is likely to get

'.. In summary, our estimate is that an autonomous Scotland’s real deficit is much nearer to 30% than 15% suggested by the GERS figures. In addition, Scotland’s ability to cope with further economic shocks with its present propensity to state spending is highly limited ..'

'.. We need a reality check – our debts are too high and unsustainable ..'

It is an interesting read and certainly adds to the debate but you really do have to take into account where the TaxPayersScotland lot are coming from.

Their own words are

"Our view is that Big Government is robbing the people. None of us voted specifically that they should take this amount of our effort for their purposes. The results of the politician's efforts are observed to be poor.

We are here to fight for the right of taxpayers to keep their own income, to question the amount the state is spending and how it spends it. We are here to demand lower taxes, to limits to government; allowing us choices in the provision of social comforts, health and education."

They are funded from the UK's London based Taxpayers' Alliance organisation which is turn has been closely linked to the right wing of the Tory Party and the American Tea Party. See more here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TaxPayers'_Alliance

Many of their points are perfectly valid but one should always be aware of where a report is coming from and who it serves. Andy P has put this more succinctly above.

Given that Scotland has more pandas than tory MPs and given that their objects and ideas are hardly in tune with many if not most Scots, I would personally view any report emanating from this lot with more wariness than anything coming out of Westminster. 

You will note that "their estimate" is just that - "their estimate"! But as I said, an interesting read all the same.

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By taxhound
28th Nov 2013 13:31

giving the vote to 16 and 17 year olds

Has to be one of the stupidest things about this referendum.  I speak as the mother of a 16 year old son.  If he and his friends get to decide our futures, God help us all.   They will be 18 soon enough.  No need to let them vote before they are able to think beyond the next party.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
28th Nov 2013 14:34

Parties

taxhound wrote:

Has to be one of the stupidest things about this referendum.  I speak as the mother of a 16 year old son.  If he and his friends get to decide our futures, God help us all.   They will be 18 soon enough.  No need to let them vote before they are able to think beyond the next party.

Surely we want them to think about parties when they are voting!!

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By Octopus
28th Nov 2013 15:18

A "fact" that is conveniently ignored.

I notice that many of the "facts" referred to by those who support a yes vote are sourced from Scottish newspapers. Hardly unbiased. The simple fact is that Scotland received £24 billion more from the taxpayer than it pays in taxes.  On day one of independence that £24billion a year will stop. I have heard a lot of hot air from Alex Salmond, but not one concrete statement as to how he intends to fill this black hole in Scotland's economy.

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Replying to carole.businessheads:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
28th Nov 2013 15:43

Who knows the correct figure

Octopus wrote:

I notice that many of the "facts" referred to by those who support a yes vote are sourced from Scottish newspapers. Hardly unbiased. The simple fact is that Scotland received £24 billion more from the taxpayer than it pays in taxes.  On day one of independence that £24billion a year will stop. I have heard a lot of hot air from Alex Salmond, but not one concrete statement as to how he intends to fill this black hole in Scotland's economy.

 

How do you/ the source define what Scotland pays in taxes. How is PAYE/NI deducted from all those who work through say Tesco's payroll allocated, is it treated in the calculation as "English" tax notwithstanding the shop the staff work in is in say Edinburgh.If split from where the payroll is notionally operated the figures are flawed to start with. What about vat for companies who have a UK presence, how is that split, same argument.

The £24 billion you state as a"fact" is I strongly suspect a very subjective figure, I doubt anyone "knows" what tax  arises to the Treasury from Scotland, it is no doubt  based on some form of extrapolation from statistics and accordingly ought not to be revered as a fact.

For the record I am a no voter not a yes, but these plucked figures purporting to be gospel really annoy.

There is no certainty with any of the figures thrown about by the YES and the NO teams, they both no doubt have inbuilt error and both probably are above the materiality level that ought to be set ,making any accounts based on same unreliable.

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By awoodj
28th Nov 2013 15:31

Sorry to rain on Nigel's parade

Anyone reading this thread might think that the Yes vote is a lock in for success. From the conversations I have with people (and I am based in Scotland) there are a very large number of people unconvinced that the utopia portrayed by Alex Salmond would come to fruition. Many do think that the upside is limited and the potential downside is large and given that why would they take the risk. I think the polls currently bear that out and the document released the other day did little to convince people that the SNP have published much more than a wish list which seems very lacking on how all those wishes would be paid for. Ohh apart from the oil will pay for everything of course.

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Replying to atleastisoundknowledgable...:
Me!
By nigelburge
28th Nov 2013 15:50

I like rain!!

awoodj wrote:

Anyone reading this thread might think that the Yes vote is a lock in for success.

Actually, anyone reading this thread is most likely to get the opposite view. That Independence is just such a silly idea that it will never happen and that after a dead certain No vote, the SNP will simply vanish like morning dew.

Many people seem to only discuss Independence with like-minded folk. That is fine but the undecideds will swing it either way and so far, there is no indication of the undecideds rushing into the arms of the BT campaign in their droves. BT are going to have to try a lot harder and boy do they know it.

You say that "the document released the other day did little to convince people that the SNP have published much more than a wish list which seems very lacking on how all those wishes would be paid for. Ohh apart from the oil will pay for everything of course." Gosh! You should get a job in politics since you have managed to know what "people" think in under two days. Well done - even the BT campaign isn't claiming that.

You may well be a decided no voter but "many people" have the opposite view and sticking your fingers in your ears and LaLa-ing will not change that. Only reasoned debate will change the views of reasonable people and that seems to be being forgotten by "Project Fear".

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Replying to atleastisoundknowledgable...:
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By awoodj
28th Nov 2013 16:00

Nigel I actually do know what the people I speak to think as they have told me and that is what I base my comments on, as with all polling of opinion, you speak to a subset of people and try to extrapolate results based on that.

I see you also quickly edited out your "Let's do away with the silliness - please" comment and replaced with "sticking your fingers in your ears and LaLa-ing will not change that" I assume that you don't follow your own advice?

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
Me!
By nigelburge
28th Nov 2013 16:13

Errrr

awoodj wrote:

Nigel I actually do know what the people I speak to think as they have told me and that is what I base my comments on, as with all polling of opinion, you speak to a subset of people and try to extrapolate results based on that.

Fair enough - we all do that - but some of us perhaps might extrapolate a bit too far. - Mind you, they can't touch you for it!

Quote:

I see you also quickly edited out your "Let's do away with the silliness - please" comment and replaced with "sticking your fingers in your ears and LaLa-ing will not change that"

Many thanks for that - I am sure that everyone will be very interested in that. Perhaps you would like to ask the Mods to remove the edit facility altogether. My, my, we are getting scratchy aren't we!!

Quote:

I assume that you don't follow your own advice?

Usually but sometimes not, as in this case.

Nighty, night - I am off home now.

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Me!
By nigelburge
28th Nov 2013 15:36

@Octopus

Oh come on! Now you are just being plain silly.

The so called "Scottish" papers are amongst the most rabidly anti-SNP that exist.

Indeed, the Scotsman is only outdone by the Daily Wail.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if anything is said in the Scottish press that is favourable to the SNP, it is only squeezed out between very gritted teeth.

As to the rest of your "facts", tell me one thing, I beg of you. If what you say is true, why oh why is England so desperate to hang on the Scotland?????

I really, really would like an answer to this. Cameron and Co have been promising an answer to this for some years now but to date, none has been forthcoming.

If you can come up with one, you would single-handedly persuade thousands of people to vote NO. You might even persuade me!!

My breath is well and truly bated now.

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Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
28th Nov 2013 16:20

The press in Scotland

Hi 

The press in Scotland in the majority is pretty anti SNP.      There are many who vote for SNP to run the Scottish Government that do not believed in independence.  For example me and many others I know. 

When it comes to Westminster election  I vote a different party depending on  current UK issues at the time that our important to me.   I have voted both Labour and Conservative but never ever will I vote the Liberal Democrats as I actively campaign on local issues against this party and I would rather stick pins in my eyes.  Then vote JO SWINDON or any other Liberal in my area.

The fact is when you study  all the results of all the elections the reason pundits find Scotland so difficult to judge is that the Westminster Election results bears no resembles to Scottish Government Elections, which also bear no resembles to the council elections. .  For example there are more Conservative Councillors in East Dunbartonshire then PANDAS.  In Dumfries and Galloway there are more conservatives then PANDAS .

So what I trying to say the people in Scotland are voting 3 ways 

Council Elections - Local issues and the best person  to represent local issues regardless          what party.  Hugely some involved in the community heavily.  My area has swung so many times it depends on the local issue at the time. 

Scottish Government Elections:   Scottish Issues, -Devolved Issues , NHS - Schools - Some Business .

Westminster Election:  Voting on issues for the best of the whole of UK 

The University of Strathclyde studies show that majority of Scotland votes this way.

Yes I am an annorak  I have stayed up over night with a nice glass of wine and I always  watch all the elections results coming in from on Scottish and UK wide elections.

 

 

 

 

 

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By ver1tate
28th Nov 2013 16:58

Split

In case the worst happens, I have been pricing houses in Carlisle, as have many others.

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By Cube
28th Nov 2013 19:45

Contentious Issue

I agree The Innkeeper  - why on earth does anybody think that everyone in the UK shouldn't get to vote on this incredibly important issue - it will effect us all. It is exactly the same little trick that was pulled in Stage-1  of this clear attempt to 'divide and conquer' our nation - devolution.

If everyone in the UK was allowed their right to vote, as they should be, I am in no doubt that we would vote NO. Not because of the oil - the English will not entertain Scotland 'getting the oil' - but because the majority of people don't want to see the country split. It is clear to most that no good can come of it - we will become a divided nation. There will be endless bickering and bad blood.

 

IMO the broad brush strokes are what is important here:

Scotland has a (edit) relatively small population - Scotland= 5m, England= 56mCurrently England subsidises ScotlandThe majority of the wealth in the UK (edit) is channelled through SE EnglandThe Scots have been well represented in recent UK governmentsThere has been a steady rise in indirect taxation in the UKScotland is more socialist than England

 

IMHO it is simple and clear - that apart, both countries will be weaker and poorer. Scotland very much so.

 

 

 

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Replying to North East Accountant:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
28th Nov 2013 18:25

Not sure your argument will go down well here

Cube wrote:

I agree The Innkeeper  - why on earth does anybody think that everyone in the UK shouldn't get to vote on this incredibly important issue - it will effect us all. It is exactly the same little trick that was pulled in Stage-1  of this clear attempt to 'divide and conquer' our nation - devolution.

If everyone in the UK was allowed their right to vote, as they should be, I am in no doubt that we would vote NO. Not because of the oil - the English will not entertain Scotland 'getting the oil' - but because the majority of people don't want to see the country split. It is clear to most that no good can come of it - we will become a divided nation. There will be endless bickering and bad blood.

 

IMO the broad brush strokes are what is important here:

Scotland has a tiny population - Scotland= 5m, England= 56mCurrently England subsidises ScotlandThe majority of the wealth generated in the UK is within the M25The Scots have been well represented in recent UK governmentsThere has been a steady rise in indirect taxation in the UKScotland is more socialist than England

 

IMHO it is simple and clear - that apart, both countries will be weaker and poorer. Scotland very much so.

 

For us up here not all that you state is accepted as correct:

Accept 1, however 5 million is not tiny.

No evidence for 2, and a strong argument can be made that the whole of the UK  partly props up London; in all these sorts of calculations not much is made of the fact that having the seat of government in London generates vast economic activity in London. All the Whitehall departments etc devour a fair chunk of UK taxes and when this rather imprecise carve up is done as to who pays what/who gets what, these central costs always seem to be ignored. Care to calculate the benefit to London of the rest of us paying for their Olympics, Royal wedding etc. 

I don't want independence  but IMHO one of the factors that makes it more likely, not less, is this perpetual  "we subsidise you" bleat from down South. There is nothing, short of our football team having a victory like 1967 , that is more likely to get the population up here daubing on the woad and marking a yes on the ballot; if England and the rest of the UK wants to maintain the Union this is one argument that ought to be led gently.

 

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
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By Octopus
28th Nov 2013 18:35

Football ?

DJKL wrote:

There is nothing, short of our football team having a victory like 1967 , that is more likely to get the population up here daubing on the woad and marking a yes on the ballot;

 

Come on, the last time Scotland had a decent football team it was recorded in the Doomsday Book.  :)

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Replying to Kevkava:
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By User deleted
28th Nov 2013 22:55

Football (and rugby)

Octopus wrote:

DJKL wrote:

There is nothing, short of our football team having a victory like 1967 , that is more likely to get the population up here daubing on the woad and marking a yes on the ballot;

 

Come on, the last time Scotland had a decent football team it was recorded in the Doomsday Book.  :)

Their sporting achievements may not be up to much, but at least they can take pride in singing a national anthem that belongs to them (as can the Welsh and Irish - but of course who are equally unable to boast about sporting prowess).

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Replying to Cant Add Up:
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By User deleted
01st Dec 2013 20:03

A fine old anthem ...

BKD wrote:

Octopus wrote:

DJKL wrote:

There is nothing, short of our football team having a victory like 1967 , that is more likely to get the population up here daubing on the woad and marking a yes on the ballot;

 

Come on, the last time Scotland had a decent football team it was recorded in the Doomsday Book.  :)

Their sporting achievements may not be up to much, but at least they can take pride in singing a national anthem that belongs to them (as can the Welsh and Irish - but of course who are equally unable to boast about sporting prowess).

... that is younger than me, and reflects on a single incident in the history of a nation - and indicates that if you take away the pathological hatred of the English there is little of substance left!

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Replying to Cant Add Up:
RLI
By lionofludesch
02nd Dec 2013 10:34

Anthem

BKD wrote:

Their sporting achievements may not be up to much, but at least they can take pride in singing a national anthem that belongs to them (as can the Welsh and Irish - but of course who are equally unable to boast about sporting prowess).

The Northern Irish National Anthem is .................. God Save the Queen.
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By Octopus
28th Nov 2013 18:28

Two questions

 

Ignoring all the "facts" for a minute, as they seem to be hotly disputed depending on which side of the fence people are on, there are two points which do cross my mind.

 

In a true democracy shouldn’t the real vote be for England to vote whether or not it wants to allow Scotland to remain part of the UK since it is an unaffordable drain on the English taxpayer.

 

The other point is one for the Scots. Do you really agree with a fool like Alex Salmond ? Who could possibly take anything Salmond says seriously.  He reminds me of a Scottish version of John Prescott, a buffoon who trots out party rhetoric but lacks the mental capacity to understand a word of it.

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Replying to johnjenkins:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
29th Nov 2013 11:25

Don't underestimate Wee Eck

Octopus wrote:

 

Ignoring all the "facts" for a minute, as they seem to be hotly disputed depending on which side of the fence people are on, there are two points which do cross my mind.

 

In a true democracy shouldn’t the real vote be for England to vote whether or not it wants to allow Scotland to remain part of the UK since it is an unaffordable drain on the English taxpayer.

 

The other point is one for the Scots. Do you really agree with a fool like Alex Salmond ? Who could possibly take anything Salmond says seriously.  He reminds me of a Scottish version of John Prescott, a buffoon who trots out party rhetoric but lacks the mental capacity to understand a word of it.

 

1.You have not proved the unaffordable drain point, my earlier post re not relying on ANY of the figures still holds.

 

1.I  would never describe Wee Eck as a fool, he is currently a quality act as a politician in comparison with the other leaders. He is  a pretty smart guy and a pretty decent political operator. He presses the flesh with a natural ability to talk with the electorate (not at). Don't let the outward veneer disguise the inner abilities, his work as a bank economist in the oil sector stands him in good stead. The comparison with Prescott only stands in the context that both have actually done a real job prior to politics, which I do admire. I have little time for politicians whose whole lives have been politics e.g as researchers, assistants and thereafter as an MP.

DJKL

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By ShirleyM
28th Nov 2013 19:02

@Octopus

Politicans are all buffoons. At least John Prescott is honest about his 'failings' unlike 'Dave C who doesn't even realise how thick he is ... and the Mayor of London (Conservative) is a self-confessed buffoon.

I wonder why people like buffoons so much  ... maybe it is because they are soooo entertaining ... but useless at politics. :)

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By daveforbes
28th Nov 2013 19:16

Have read the yes vote whitepaper

"Most countries in the world generate less wealth per head than Scotland - including the UK as a whole. If Scotland cannot afford to be independent, neither can the UK."

Following that logic Milton Keynes with above average GDP per head can afford to be independent.

A lot of costs are fixed and don't scale down with a smaller population. 

5 million is small (Manchester+Birmingham), down below Croatia and 25th or so in EU. I personally would be entitled to carry a Scottish passport - but I think I will stick to my British one, finding Scottish embassies might be difficult.

The whitepaper refers to different immigration policies and remaining in the EU even if the rest of the UK chooses to leave. This will require a proper border !

The whitepaper even seems to suggest Scotland's worryingly low average life expectancy will improve with independence !

IMO the UK would suffer if Scotland left, but not as much as Scotland would. 

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By Cube
28th Nov 2013 19:20

All points good

@DJKL

All points good.

With Iceland at a pop of 315,281, it makes Scotland non-"tiny", I agree. However, I was talking about relative to England. Broad-brush strokes here.

All we can rely on are the broad brush strokes, as there will be total nonesense trotted out by the obfuscationists. Those with an agenda.

 

 

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By andrew.hyde
29th Nov 2013 10:43

And in summary

Let's stop all the nonsense about 'facts'.  Nobody is interested in facts, and there are none available anyway.  So this is just my opinion, and if you want to say it's rubbish that's fine

If Scots think that independence is an easy route for them to enjoy a high-income, low-tax future as one of the most respected and successful small countries in the world, then welcome to cloud cuckoo land.  Suggest you check out the SNP's future plans in relation to Jobseekers' Allowance.Brits don't want to cling to Scotland.  For my part I just recognise that the process of splitting will be eye-wateringly expensive, and I'll end up paying most of it.Better Together means just that. The whole point of the UK is that it is more than the sum of its parts.  Independence for Scotland will do no more than prove the point.Alex Salmond has the future of Alex Salmond at heart. 

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Euan's picture
By Euan MacLennan
29th Nov 2013 10:43

Is Scotland an entity?

Will the inhabitants of Shetland, Orkney and the Hebrides be happier if they are ruled by a government in Edinburgh, rather than in London?  Would the Highlanders prefer not to be lumped into the same nation as the Lowland Campbells?  Would the people in the Borders prefer to be part of England?  Should Aberdeen and its remaining oil reserves be independent?

Where do you draw the (boundary) line?

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Replying to vstrad:
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By Bagel
29th Nov 2013 11:07

Ownership of oil fields?

Related to Euan's point about boundaries - what is there to prevent the islands declaring independence themselves, and taking 'their' oil fields with them? 

This could get interesting...

 

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By User deleted
29th Nov 2013 11:17

Shetland, Orkneys etc....

@Bagel - absolutely

'.. Don't forget that the a large proportion of the oil off the north coast actually belongs to Shetland, Orkneys etc. and if they decide to remain in the UK or declare UDI on their own account or join Norway then Scotland’s  main (only major) revenue stream dries up instantly ..'

https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/article/scots-tax-plans-under-fire/52820...

 

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By Octopus
29th Nov 2013 11:58

Braveheart

I think Alex Salmond has watched too many re-runs of Braveheart and is starting to believe the Hollywood version of Scotland.  The fact is that an independent Scotland would be an insignificant little country off the coast of Europe with a struggling economy, high unemployment, and no say in world affairs.  From an accountant's point of view, I presume that HMRC would immediately close it's Scottish based call centres.

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By User deleted
29th Nov 2013 12:15

This is quite interesting ...

...

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-government-provides-more-than-30-000-civil-service-jobs-in-scotland

Personally, from a business point of view it would be awful. Different laws and taxes for companies with a foot on each stool, in particular my US owned English registered company that is based in Scotland - that's going to be fun!

Likelihood is England will get a Right wing low tax government, Scotland a left wing high tax one - so where are the wealth makers going to go? Manchester, Liverpool and Newcastle may come out of it quite well - I am sure they can squeeze a few thousand more in at Salford, Bootle and Long Benton!

To me it is all Jingoistic huff and there are far more important things to worry about. It doesn't really matter who is in charge, they will all screw you one way or another, it is just the accents that change!

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Replying to Wanderer:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
29th Nov 2013 12:40

Different laws

We already have different laws in a number of areas, ignoring criminal law which I think mainly differs re procedure, juries and acceptable evidence, of the top of my head:

1. Partnership Law differs

2. Legal conveyancing differs

3. Delict as against Tort

4. Insolvency law

5. Succession Law and rights

6. Contract law I think differs in a couple of ways e.g unilateral gratuitous promises.

We already have a very different legal system .

 

DJKL

(the only part of the delict course I can now remember is donoghue v stevenson (the snail in the ginger beer)

 

 

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By Lship
29th Nov 2013 12:34

Oil fields

So much importance is being placed on the oil fields (by both sides). And I think the only agreeable fact is that oil is quickly running out.

10, 20, 30 years whichever estimate is accurate is still only a generation away, and when supplies do start to dwindle the owners of the north sea reserves will have a minor say in proceedings compared to the US, Russia & the cartels of the middle east.

Where will the new jobs come from then for Scotland? or the revenue sources? The latest refinery job scare showed that, when the Unions were well and truly knocked for six,

I dont think many south of the border would be that bothered if Scotland were to gain independance, except for sentiment reasons for the United Kingdom. 

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By daveforbes
29th Nov 2013 12:43

the OP was "how will it affect accountants"

Software might be an issue -- some vendors may think it too small a market. Your vendor of choice might not produce software for the oil rich city state of Aberdonia.

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Replying to Chris Morford:
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By jasonowsky
29th Nov 2013 13:07

statistics

As Mark Carney remarked yesterday, the ONS struggle with getting timely, accurate information, so how on earth can we judge the figures being bandied around by different sides? We do seem to have a problem with getting any rational debate on the subject, which basically arises partly because accurate figures are not there, but also because a lot of people cannot grasp basic statisitical concepts (for example, a slow down in rate of growth gets confused with contraction, partly exarcebated by the media). The press and TV also do not seem willing to give any figures unless they are round (£1,000) and can be explained in 2 seconds flat. All we get is visits to houses in Scotland with people making inane comments that is simply repetition from the last time people were interviewed when Salmond made a speech. I have lost count of the number of times I've heard "We are Scottish, so I want an independent Scotland" or "We are British so I want to stay part of the Union". The media need to up their game and actually start going into a bit more detail, and upping the debate. Otherwise it will just be a vote based on simple emotive speeches, and that's not good for democracy.

 

 

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By User deleted
29th Nov 2013 13:57

As I intimated ...

... it will be a potential nightmare!

The pissy differences we have are very low impact, as you say it is more procedural than outcome that varies, but as accountants if we have clients with payrolls on two different bases, different VAT rules, different direct tax laws, rates and allowances, different taxes completely...

Tax planning would be a nightmare, trying to time your move so you died in the country with the more generous IHT regime.

I have two Scottish clients, one a Scottish registered and one an English registered company. I dread what the future will be like for those, I really feel for accountants on the border who could well have clients split equally in two regimes!

Dave Forbes point is valid, would it be worthwhile adapting software, would IRIS for example support Scottish and English personal tax returns- if so at what cost, or would that be a separate modle we would need, then there would be the company accounts modules to deal with ...

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Replying to lionofludesch:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
29th Nov 2013 14:05

Legal differences already exist

Old Greying Accountant wrote:

... it will be a potential nightmare!

The pissy differences we have are very low impact, as you say it is more procedural than outcome that varies, but as accountants if we have clients with payrolls on two different bases, different VAT rules, different direct tax laws, rates and allowances, different taxes completely...

Tax planning would be a nightmare, trying to time your move so you died in teh country with the more generous IHT regime.

I have two Scottish clients, one a Scottish registered and one an English registered company. I dread what the future will be like for those, I really feel for accountnats on the border who could well have clients split equally in two regimes!

Dave Forbes point is valid, would it be worthwhile adapting software, would IRIS for example support Scottish and English personal tax returns- if so at what cost, or would that be a separate modle we would need, then there would be the company accounts modules to deal with ...

Re general taxes, we seem to manage with international trade and its vat implications already, if Scotland were in the EU (IF) then no different from selling goods/services to Calais from Dover.

Re inheritance, it won't be timing your move but your domicile that will be of import.

Insofar as I am aware if you are domiciled in Scotland then it's legal system re succession, legal rights etc will  already possibly  govern part/all of your estate, certainly re any part of it located in Scotland.

The Scottish confirmation  form ( probate) has as long as I remember been split into assets Scotland, assets England etc

We already have a distinct succession Scotland Act.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/12/05115128/51285

I don't see the issue here, my Father's law firm ,which was located in Edinburgh ,always had correspondent firms in other useful jurisdictions like England and Ireland for these sorts of issues.

Re software someone will always drop into the void, however the choice may be limited and therefore the ciost may be higher than would otherwise be the case.Back in the 1980's there were really only two firms, Pilgrim and Usher, who provided software to the Scottish legal profession which complied with the then particular requirements of the Law Society of Scotland, their prices were a tad eye watering.

We already have little legal variations re tax, e.g. in England the leasehold disposal of a major interest in land needs to be 21 years, however the 1974 Scottish Land tenure Act does not permit residential property in Scotland to be leased for more than 20 years, accordingly in Scotland a 20 year lease in this circumstance is , for vat purposes, recognised as a disposal of a major interest. ( I did an inter company lease of this ilk to capture the input vat on a development of a block of flats that was then to be let on short asurred tenancies (another legal difference).

DJKL

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By daveforbes
29th Nov 2013 16:45

domicile and residence

If you have properties north and south of the border that has no border controls ....

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Replying to SteveHa:
RLI
By lionofludesch
30th Nov 2013 10:42

.

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Replying to Richard Hattersley:
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By andy.partridge
30th Nov 2013 10:48

Good point

lionofludesch wrote:

.

Well made

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Replying to SteveHa:
RLI
By lionofludesch
30th Nov 2013 10:41

Open Border

daveforbes wrote:

If you have properties north and south of the border that has no border controls ....

Like in Ireland ?
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By ver1tate
29th Nov 2013 17:22

What could an independent Scotland mean for the accountancy

There would be very little need for accountants, but most probably a huge requirement for insolvency practitioners

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By ver1tate
30th Nov 2013 00:28

Update

Thanks to the publisher for the white paper. It just proves that everything that has happened will repeat itself. At one time fairy tales were written by the brothers Grimm, now they are written by the brother and sister who are even grimmer----Alex and Nicola.

As a prospectus, it is very vague on detail.

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By Octopus
30th Nov 2013 15:25

Hadrians Wall the new Berlin Wall ?

According to the "experts" Scotland would not automatically remain in the EU, and would have to go through the long process of applying, meeting criteria etcetera just like other countries have had to.  Until (if) it gained membership, there would be a requirement for immigration controls, customs, etc. between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

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Replying to TheAccountant-ish:
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By Octopus
30th Nov 2013 19:28

Source

BKD wrote:

Octopus wrote:

According to the "experts" Scotland would not automatically remain in the EU,

There's one, I suppose.

 

I base my comment on comments made during an interview with Stephen Tierney, who is Professor of Constitutional Theory and Director of the Edinburgh Centre for Constitutional Law, University of Edinburgh. Mr Tierney also acts as Constitutional Adviser to the Scottish Parliament Referendum Bill Committee.  I think he probably knows the constitutional position better than most of us.

 

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
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By Octopus
01st Dec 2013 15:43

There's a big difference

lionofludesch wrote:

I drove up from Dublin to Belfast last month.  I didn't see much in the way of immigration, customs etc.  Just a sign near Newry saying that the speed limits were in mph not kph.  This is 90 years after partition. Why would Scotland be any different ?  Hadrian's Wall's not on the border by the way.

 

Well you wouldn’t because both Eire and Northern Ireland (as part of the UK) are member states of the EU. Therefore free movement across borders is allowed. If Scotland became independent it would, according to the experts, cease to be a member of the EU (at least for several years) and it’s citizens would therefore not enjoy freedom of movement within the EU and would have no more right to enter England (or Wales or Northern Ireland) than citizens of Outer Mongolia, Peru, or any other foreign nation.

 

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Replying to DJKL:
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By User deleted
01st Dec 2013 16:24

Another benefit

Octopus wrote:

If Scotland became independent ... it’s citizens ... would have no more right to enter England (or Wales or Northern Ireland) than citizens of Outer Mongolia, Peru, or any other foreign nation.

 

If it keeps the Welsh out of Scotland it gets my vote

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Replying to DJKL:
Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
01st Dec 2013 20:27

sorry misread a post

[

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Replying to DJKL:
RLI
By lionofludesch
02nd Dec 2013 09:39

Not so

Octopus wrote:

lionofludesch wrote:

I drove up from Dublin to Belfast last month.  I didn't see much in the way of immigration, customs etc.  Just a sign near Newry saying that the speed limits were in mph not kph.  This is 90 years after partition. Why would Scotland be any different ?  Hadrian's Wall's not on the border by the way.

 

Well you wouldn’t because both Eire and Northern Ireland (as part of the UK) are member states of the EU. Therefore free movement across borders is allowed. If Scotland became independent it would, according to the experts, cease to be a member of the EU (at least for several years) and it’s citizens would therefore not enjoy freedom of movement within the EU and would have no more right to enter England (or Wales or Northern Ireland) than citizens of Outer Mongolia, Peru, or any other foreign nation.

 

So why do I need a passport to get into France ?  Or Spain ?  Or Portugal ?  Etc.
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