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What happened to outsourcing?

What happened to outsourcing?

Didn't find your answer?

I was unable to sleep last night and spent a few hours going through my old files and papers for the want of something better to do.

Amongst my stuff I found a conferance program from 2005 that predicted that paperless and outsourcing were the future of practice in the UK.

The paperless bit seams to have been adopted - allbeit in a less paper way, rather than the complete paperless office approach - but outsourcing seems to have died a death.

Is anyone still outsourcing? How many tried it?

Steve

Replies (50)

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By zarathustra
27th Aug 2011 19:43

Just my thoughts

I interviewed a few providers but didn't actually go ahead.

The typical cost amongst the serious players was £10/£11 per hour. Coupled with a cost in staff time in the uk and also investment in technology to get the info to the outsoursce company I couldn't see sufficient savings to make it worthwhile.

Also most providers wanted you to sign up to a minimum amount per month, which negated any thought of more flexible staffing.

With exchange rates and rising cost of living in India it will only get worse.

Summary: insufficient upside for me.

 

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By ShirleyM
28th Aug 2011 07:08

@Steve

We outsource some work (not all of it).

I think people on here that do outsource will be reluctant to admit it, because they tend to get jumped on from a great height by one or two individuals on here.

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Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
28th Aug 2011 15:04

May still be alive & kicking

We have seen the rise of the "everything for £120 pm" accounting facility and I would imagine that a good proportion of the basic bookkeeping side is outsourced?

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By Spartacus
28th Aug 2011 15:50

Depends

Outsourcing to a local bookeeper is an entirely different proposition to outsourcing abroad.  Getting to know someone local, and assessing the quality of their work , is relatively simple.  If there is a problem they are just a short drive away.

Outsourcing abroad you have little control over quality, very little control over data security, and no way to sort problems out face to face.

In either case something many accountants forget is that under the Data Protection Act you must obtain your clients permission to disclose information to a third party. In our experience most clients are happy for this to be done in the UK, but very reluctant when it comes to overseas sub-contractors.

 

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By ShirleyM
28th Aug 2011 16:45

It depends how you ask, and what you say to them

Are you talking from personal experience?  Have you ever outsourced abroad?

EDIT: Forget those questions, please. It is obvious from your comments that either you haven't tried it, or you have tried the wrong people.

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Replying to AnonymousUser:
By Spartacus
28th Aug 2011 18:01

-

ShirleyM wrote:

Are you talking from personal experience?  Have you ever outsourced abroad?

EDIT: Forget those questions, please. It is obvious from your comments that either you haven't tried it, or you have tried the wrong people.

 

 

I'm going by the experience of others who have used overseas sub-contractors, and my own experience of using local sub-contractors.

 

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By Flash Gordon
28th Aug 2011 16:25

Terms & conditions

I have it in my T&C that I reserve the right to sub-contract work out so it wouldn't be an issue for me anyway.....

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By zarathustra
28th Aug 2011 17:22

Are my costings way out ?

 

Hi Shirly, do you think my comments in the first reply above are out of date?

Should I be looking at it again.

In particular, are there people who will work on % of fee?

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By ShirleyM
28th Aug 2011 17:50

@Zarathustra

I'll PM you.

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By ShirleyM
28th Aug 2011 18:29

Nothing can replace first hand experience

I don't have a problem with your choice, whatever it may be.

But for those people who are interested, surely it is better that they hear from those with actual experience (whether it is good, bad, or indifferent).

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By Spartacus
28th Aug 2011 18:39

I speak to a lot of local accountants, and

The experience of collegues with overseas contracting seems to be all bad.  Usually they have found that service levels deteriorate with time, and that costs are no lower than local subcontracting once all the costs are taken into account.

 

 

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By ShirleyM
28th Aug 2011 18:49

Maybe it's true, maybe not

It can be a difficult balancing act.

If you praise your subbie/outsourcer to everyone, then everyone may jump on the same bandwagon. This could result in the subbie/outsourcer getting too busy, or putting their prices up.

I prefer to judge from my own experience.

 

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Mark Lee 2017
By Mark Lee
28th Aug 2011 19:40

Forthcoming article on Outsourcing

Coincidentally my next piece for AccountingWeb is on the subject of outsourcing.  Without duplicating what I've said in the article let me just answer Steve's key question about the prophecies being made in 2005.

I can almost guess which conference organiser it was. There are certain commentators and organisations who make all manner of predictions about the future of the accountancy profession. I've done it myself. BUT in recent years I have tried to avoid doing so. I've learned that most accountants adapt to new technologies, rules and opportunities but only as and when they really need to do so.

Outsourcing accounts production overseas has long been an OPTION. Some accountants have found reliable competent cost effective suppliers. Others have had their fingers burned or  chose not to 'risk it'. 

In my experience only a minority of practices are outsourcing their accounts production work overseas. And I suspect it will stay that way for a some years to come.

Mark

 

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By Spartacus
28th Aug 2011 19:48

Predictions

[removed by mod - off topic]

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Replying to Anonymous:
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By BKD
28th Aug 2011 21:50

.

[removed by mod - pointless, no comment]

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By ShirleyM
28th Aug 2011 20:47

@Mark

To get back on-topic, I will be watching out for your article, Mark.

I am not sure which organisation you refer to, but I can guess, and I am probably a member. 

In their defence, nobody can be right 100% of the time. Predicting the future is fraught with uncertainty, and even if they were pretty accurate there are too many variables involved, eg. the big differences between practices, and even individual accountants within those practices.

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Replying to geoffemtacs:
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By Steve McQueen
30th Aug 2011 11:28

Mr Ronit Shah (ACCA)

[removed by mod - in response to above advert]

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Replying to adam.arca:
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By BKD
30th Aug 2011 12:12

Off-topic

[removed by mod - continuation of above]

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Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
30th Aug 2011 11:59

Ronit

[removed by mod - continuation of above]

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By Flash Gordon
30th Aug 2011 12:01

@ Paul

[as above]

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By ShirleyM
30th Aug 2011 12:08

Lucky me !

[as above]

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By Spartacus
30th Aug 2011 12:50

-

[as above]

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By Becky Midgley
30th Aug 2011 13:07

Reminder to stay on topic

We had a minor deviation then from the question at hand, can we get back on topic now please.

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By Old Greying Accountant
30th Aug 2011 14:29

I have a moral issue with outsourcing abroad ...

... if it is taken to extremes and we all outsourced any job that didn't actually need a physical presence here it we would end with tradesmen and a few high earners supporting everyone else on the dole or in made up jobs provided by government (local and national).

Some may say we are not far from that anyway!

We moan at "the youth of today", but if you can outsource abroad what incentive is there to train school leavers? The natural progression is that with no youngsters being trained in the basics in years to come there will be no home grown accountants and book-keepers, just shop fronts for overseas "sweat-shops" for want of a better word.

I am on record on here as bewailing any sort of big picture approach to the collective wealth of this country. No one seems to grasp the fact that the reason recovery is so slow is that the profits from the growth that is happening are being siphoned abroad, and not re-circulated in the home economy.

All outsourcing does is skew local economies with unfair price competition. It is bad enough anyway trying to get a fair price for the job, this forum is littered with questions about under-cutting rivals to get clients, regardless of the cost of doing the work. We are supposed to be financial specialists yet we behave like pigs at a trough. If we sat back and thought about it, by charging the right price for the job there is more than enough work to keep us all at a comfortable level of income, for a reasonable working week, that lets us remember what our families look like without having to look at the photo's on the desk whilst going prematurely grey as our blood pressure steadily climbs. May be there is a case for legally protecting the trade as lawyers do!

Still, give it 30 years and we will all be working in sweat shops for minimum wages providing outsourced services for the burgeoning Indian and Chinese economies! It has happened to just about every other industry in the country, why should we be spared?

 

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By Spartacus
30th Aug 2011 18:09

Giving clients away ?

Old Greying Acc... PM | Tue, 30/08/2011 - 14:29 | Permalink

"... if it is taken to extremes and we all outsourced any job that didn't actually need a physical presence here it we would end with tradesmen and a few high earners supporting everyone else on the dole or in made up jobs provided by government (local and national)."

 

 

I totally agree, although I suspect most people care more about short term financial gains than they do about long term sustainability.

I wonder how long it will be before once of these sub-contractors decides to set up an office in the UK, and cut out the middle man - namely the existing accountant?  After all you're handing them all the information they need to poach your clients.

 

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By ShirleyM
30th Aug 2011 18:19

Assumptions

OGA & Spartacus - you are both making the assumption that the choice of outsourcer is made purely on cost. I can't speak for others, but you are incorrect in my case.

 

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By Old Greying Accountant
30th Aug 2011 21:24

I don't recall ...

... making any such assumption. Cost was part, but by no means all, of my argument.

All I said was any work outsourced abroad takes money and jobs out of our economy, I am not talking about outsourcing within the UK, that is purely choosing your business relationships to fit the circumstances.

If the reasons are that of superior skills, then that is a serious issue that needs addressing, but outsourcing abroad will have the opposite effect as it will decrease the atractiveness of training "our" own and so the skills gap will widen.

I am talking entirely of the big picture in all my terms. If we all outsourced everything possible we will eventually kill our market, because few will have jobs and thus "purchasing power", and we will start an ever quickining spiral into third world oblivion. Eventually, we will become cheap labour for the wealthy nations and can start to crawl out way back, but not without a quantum shift in the work ethic of vast portions of the labour market and wholesale changes to employment laws and health and safety overkill.

The other alternative is that with globalisation at some point everything will equalise and labour rates will be similar worldwide and production and jobs will be evenly spread everywhere, close to the markets they supply, but personally I feel that is unlikely because there are a few very big players with vested interests that won't let that happen! Unfortunately there are too many in this world for whom enough is not sufficient.

I would be interested in Shirleys overall rationale, by private message if she wants, she knows I am the soul of discretion :o)

 

 

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By Steve McQueen
30th Aug 2011 21:41

My own thoughts

Just so you know, I tried sending a few jobs to India and ended up in litigation with the outsoucer when I refused to pay them for the absolute rubbish they produced. They took it to the steps of the Court (in the UK) and then withdrew.

 

I have to say, that although I am a greedy capitalist, I too was deeply concerned by much the same themes as Old Greying Accountant and fundamentally it just felt "wrong" to send thing overseas.

 

I did however always make full use of UK subcontractors - the very best of which was my 81 year old father-in-law!

 

Steve

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By ShirleyM
30th Aug 2011 22:16

It's a long story

...so I won't explain why British subbies didn't work out for me, but I did try. The majority of work is kept in-house and for the few jobs that go out it isn't worth employing even a part-timer. I will say that the amount of money that goes to my outsourcer wouldn't even pay for a decent holiday abroad.

Note: I never holiday abroad, so I am not depriving the British economy on that score  :)

 

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By Spartacus
30th Aug 2011 22:48

British jobs for British workers

Wasn't it Gordon Brown who said "British jobs for British workers" - and a few weeks later his government sent a major railways contract aboad instead of to the British bidder ?

I actually think that that was the one and only thing that Gordon Brown said that actually made sense - "British jobs for British workers" .  The country is deep in debt, whoever is to blame (take your pick between Labour, Bankers, greedy Unions, etc), and while we are in debt we all owe it to the rest of the country to "buy British".

Every time you employ a Polish worker, you leave a British worker on the dole - at taxpayers expense.  Every time you outsouce a job to India you leave a British subcontractor out of work - at taxpayers expense.

Yes, the foreign subcontractors might be cheaper, but by using them you are ensuring that what you save goes in extra taxes ijstead to keep all those out of work British sub contractors.

About 30 years ago people started buying lots of foreign cars, mainly Japsnese & German - and now we have no British car industry. The same has happened to much of our industrial base - clothes from China, cars from Germany, white goods from Japan, etc.  And yes, it could happen to our "industry" too if we are short sighted and selfish enough to let it.

 

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By Flash Gordon
31st Aug 2011 06:00

But...

what if the British job pool isn't up to scratch? (As Shirley seems to have found) If the British subbie is crap then they don't deserve the work and should be looking to do something else rather than existing on the taxpayer's dosh. There is a limit as to how many you'll try if they all turn out to be numpties and if you find better elsewhere then you could make an equally good case for using them and thus being able to expand your business to the extent that you can hire full-time UK bods.....

2 sides to every discussion and I'm practicing my skills of viewing them both ready for my next masterpiece essay!

 

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By Old Greying Accountant
31st Aug 2011 10:07

Flash ...

... I agree, you have to go where you get what you need, and as an accountant, especially a sole practitioner, you can't afford to get it wrong. I do not berate or judge anyone for doing what is necessary, I just project forward the likely outcome unless the issues are tackled - unless the skills gap is addressed it will only widen.

Linking seemlessly on, to widen the discussion, I have long felt that serious tax breaks are needed to encourage firms to invest in training (along with a more stringent and less benevolent welfare system).

I know there are pockets of special areas, but for example, any trainee hired on an approved training contract should be exempt at least NI (Er's and Ee's), with possibly even an NI credit to the employer - surely it is better to give an employer £30pw than pay out £65pw job -seekers allowance (don't quote me on the figures but I think I am in the right ball park)?

The big factor though is lack of pro-activity. The hoodie yobs we are shown on television and in the newspapers are really a very small minority and most youngsters are polite; caring; and conscientious in their school work (far more than we ever were, my brother and I came across our old school reports whilst clearing out our father's house, they were less than flattering :o) ) but there is no spark there. They will happily do tasks asked of them, but then go into standby mode waiting for the next instruction. This I fear has been institutionally ingrained in to them, and is IMHO very negative.

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By ShirleyM
31st Aug 2011 10:30

My experience has been a mixed bag

I have employed two apprentices in the past, both were 'less' than employable and they should have paid me for wasting my time. One spent half the time in the toilet listening to footie matches on the radio, arrived late, went home early, and the other spent most of his time staring at the ceiling while myself, (and the other accountant I had at the time) spent one-to-one time trying to explain the basics. Both were a complete waste of time and money and you can teach someone a skill, but you can't teach them the correct attitude or ethics. I tried really hard to motivate them but in the end you get fed up of bashing your head against that brick wall.

On the other hand I have had some quite brilliant, and well motivated, school children on work experience (and some not so good). The motivated kids could have gone onto any job they wanted and one declared that their interest in becoming an accountant had been confirmed and that was now their direction for the future. I felt that the time spent on them had been worthwhile, and rewarding.

Too many youngsters (and adults) don't seem to have the work ethic anymore.

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By Spartacus
31st Aug 2011 11:12

"GREAT" Britain

ShirleyM

"Too many youngsters (and adults) don't seem to have the work ethic anymore ""

 

 

If their parents have never worked why should they ?   Isn't this all down to the schooling and general lack of discipline & focus endemic in our educational system?  Silly ideas like not letting kids take part on competative sports "because losing might traumatise them" do them no favours.

[Tempted to comment on how "traumatised Arsenal players must be, but I'll get told off by teacher for going off topic}.

When I was a youngster it was normal for firms to employ trainees and send them to local polytechnics on day release courses. This usually entailed one day a week and usually one evening too. Can you imagine telling youngsters nowdays that they would have to attend night school every week and not get paid for it?

I do, however, believe that despite the poor state of education (as regards discipline) and the fact that this will not change until their is a major change in policy and attitude (which may require changes to or abandonment of, parts of the Human Rights Act), we still, as British citizens, owe a duty to our coutry and to each other (we are all taxpayers) to do everything we can to keep money on this country and to give preferential treatment to British workers over foreign workers.

Perhaps it's ols fashioned to be patriotic - if so then i plead guilty, as despite the last 15 years of mismanagement, I still believe this is a great country and could be really great again, but ONLY if there is a huge attitude change.

 

 

 

 

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By Flash Gordon
31st Aug 2011 11:28

Keeping our money in this country

Nice sentiment but.... do you only buy British food? A lot of fruit & veg is imported. Are your clothes & shoes made in the UK? Is your pc UK-made? Does it only use technology that was created in this country? Do you only watch British-made tv programmes? Is your car British? Do you holiday exclusively in the UK? I could go on (and on) but I think I've made my point sufficiently. We don't live in an isolated country. It interacts with the rest of the world. That's how it works and unless we fancy returning to the stone age there's not much you can do about it.

 

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By ShirleyM
31st Aug 2011 11:50

It's too easy to put the blame on the unemployed

One of the apprentices I had (the one who stared at the ceiling) had working parents, and his father was an accountant. I had a lengthy discussion with his father when we eventually terminated the lads employment. I think this lads interests were not in accounting, but it didn't help that his parents waited on him hand & foot. He balked at taking his turn to wash the pots and wield the hoover (he didn't know how!!!!), he was dropped off, and picked up, at the office by his father. He was a very bright lad but his real interest was in IT, not accountancy, and my belief was that he would be a very different character if he went into that field. His father eventually agreed with me.

On a more personal note, I am hopeless at interviewing people, and if they tell me what I want to hear I tend to believe them (as happened in this case).

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By Old Greying Accountant
31st Aug 2011 15:20

Flash ...

When buying food I tend to buy in the first instance British, as local as possible and in season. If that is not possible, I would look to the commonwealth, then the Americas and lastly Europe, and at a push (if I was on the point of starvation) French.

Some products obviously cannot be grown here (viz coffee :o) ) so you have to import, but many can, but are not available to me because Messrs Tesco, Sainsbury and Morrissons won't pay a fair price to the British producers, M&S and Waitrose are less dictatorial but farmers markets help fill this void.

Consumer goods are difficult, many foreign cars are assembled here but the components made largely abroad. I had the misfortune of driving down the A13 recently, Dagenham is a very sorry state these days!

But yes, I would buy British if it was easily available and consciously do whenever I can.

I will keep banging my drum and repeat that unless we drastically change things we will ourselves be a third world nation within 2 generations at the outside. A nation must have a mix of manufacturing and services to realise its full potential, and more importantly to innovate. If we are not making anything we are not inventing things, or if we do they are sold abroad where the long term profits are exploited!

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By ShirleyM
31st Aug 2011 14:50

I'm with you Flash & OGA

I buy British whenever I can. I get peeved when Asda doesn't have English apples in stock. What is more British than apples?

Like OGA I try to avoid anything French, and if I can't buy British I try to buy 'Fair trade' stuff.

The way this country is going I am amazed that we get so many immigrants, so it must be a sad reflection on the state of their birth country, or, maybe we don't appreciate what we do have.

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By Old Greying Accountant
31st Aug 2011 15:17

Sounds like ...

... a cue for a song to liven things up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94bdMSCdw20 

 

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By Flash Gordon
31st Aug 2011 15:20

Cakes

I'd rather buy French cakes than British - I don't why but it seems like our European neighbours are much better at cakes and pastries than we are.

Try Abel & Cole - British & organic.

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By Steve Holloway
31st Aug 2011 15:26

You obviously missed Evan Davies excellent series ...

on what the UK still makes. This tiny island is still the world's seventh biggest manufacturer and OK that has slipped but you might also note we don't have a grateful empire to export to. We make more cars now than in the 60's & 70's and OK they aren't 'British' but they employ British workers and pay UK corporation tax so what is the difference?

I don't make excuses (and there are many faults here) but sometimes we rubbish stuff based on perception and misty eyed nostalgia. All developed nations have moved away from labour intensive industries and this work has followed the source of cheap labour in China, India and Brazil. What we have not cracked is how to suitably employ the people that only have skills fit for this type of work. That is NOT manufacturing as we used to know. Car makers, for example, require highly skilled workers (thank god if you remember BL cars of the 70's!). 

What I do agree with is that we should be putting pressure on supermarkets to support farming here. They are getting better. We currently produce 70% of what we eat at home but if we are not going to be hostage to rising world food prices, that needs to increase. China is changing its diet and when 1.5 billion people do that in a decade it will have a huge effect. An example ... Chinese people want to eat burgers. New Zealand farmers have stopped producing lamb to concentrate on Beef. Supermarkets used to be awash with cheap New Zealand lamb. A UK produced lamb used to fetch £70 4 years ago and earlier this year my local farmer here was getting £115 per head. We can only moderate that by bringing more land in to productivity and increasing supply here. I know people think farmers like subsidies for doing nothing but they absolutely don't ... they want to farm but they have to know they will not go bust because the supermarkets suddenly crash the price. If people start to engage their brains when shopping and shun unnecessary imports then the supermarkets will change. If you insist on buying the cheapest rubbish they can source then be it on your head when the price doubles because of floods somewhere you had never heard of. Even better buy from the producer direct and they will make more money and you will pay less than at the supermarket ... everyone wins.

Last bit of my rant (promise). If I see one more person on TV say they cannot afford to eat healthily I will hunt them down and slap the until they see sense. Its called a vegatable ... its cheap, nutricious and comes in its own packaging. Mixed with cheaper bits of meat (for non veggies) it is something that has fed us for 1000's of years. How ######## difficult is that concept?!

 

 

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By Old Greying Accountant
31st Aug 2011 15:35

Nah...

Can't beat a Chelsea or Bath bun, or for a proper cake a Victoria sponge sandwich, or best of all a rich fruit cake, the darker and fruitier the better, none of that poofy pastry malarky here.

Oooh, could just do a nice bit of lardy cake with a cuppa right now, although I am sure Spartacus would agree you will go a long way to beat a bit of bara brith (especially made traditionally with the fruit soaked in tea overnight)

No wonder Napoleon had a cats chance if that's the sort of tosh they were munching on

 

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By Spartacus
31st Aug 2011 15:38

@ Flash

Flash Gordon PM | Wed, 31/08/2011 - 11:28 | Permalink

Nice sentiment but.... do you only buy British food? . If possible.

Are your clothes & shoes made in the UK?  No idea.

Is your pc UK-made?  Assembled in UK yes

Does it only use technology that was created in this country? Are there lots of out of work British inventors?

Do you only watch British-made tv programmes?  Mostly yes as I only watch live football etc.

Is your car British?    One is, one is German and the other was assembled in the UK. 

Do you holiday exclusively in the UK?  Whats a holiday?

 

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By Old Greying Accountant
31st Aug 2011 16:03

Ok

My car is Japanese, but I believe made and assemble here.

On the rare occassion I holiday it is in the UK.

My main televisual experience is made in Manchester, when in season MOTD and MOTD2 and the 6 nations rugby - very little else but will usually be British

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By petew
01st Sep 2011 10:27

Outsourcing - Engagement Letter

Back on subject a little if I may (I know, not nearly as fun!) to anyone that currently outsources, do you have something in the engagement letter about it?

My firm is thinking about outsourcing at the moment, personally don't agree but not up to me, I am in charge of updating engagement letters so this got me thinking.

Do we need to have something in there to say we will be sending client data to a third party?

Thanks

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By ShirleyM
01st Sep 2011 14:15

@petew

We have a clause in our Terms & Conditions.

I would prefer not to need outsourcing, but I think it is preferable to outsource than to let clients down over timescales, or make mistakes due to time pressures. We are dealing with human beings, and even the best planning and scheduling in the world won't work unless everything goes exactly to plan. People get sick, they smash their car, they just 'forget', they lose a bank statement, etc. ... the reasons for work schedules going awry are endless.

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By petew
01st Sep 2011 14:29

@ShirleyM

I can see the potential benefits to the client so you won't find me knocking it for that reason, it just doesn't feel right to me.

I'm sure once we start usign it, assuming we do, I'll get used to it and be quite happy.

Can I be really cheeky and ask what your clause says, feel free to say no I won't be offended.

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By Flash Gordon
01st Sep 2011 14:32

T&C also

I've also got a clause in my T&C -  

We may, on occasions, subcontract work on your affairs to other tax or accounting professionals. The subcontractors will be bound by our client confidentiality terms.

 

I don't see a problem with outsourcing in general - if you have times when you have excess work for current staff but not so much that you can afford to employ someone else or indeed if you can't actually find suitable staff then outsourcing is the obvious solution. Alternatively you could work through the night or make your staff do the same but not sure how long-term a solution that would be :)

 

I actually do a bit of subbying for a bigger practice - originally when I started up to bring in some money but I carry on because it's good money and minimal hassle (and I'm all about minimum hassle!). We have a contract in place so I can't nick the clients but then it wouldn't occur to me to do that anyway (these moral values of mine do get in the way sometimes!). It's a good working relationship and for the mid-term it's one I'll continue. The only downside for me is that I do have to have some client contact in picking the stuff up - ideally I'd rather it turned up by courier, I did the job, emailed the accounts etc to the main accountants and sent the stuff back. But then the world is not perfect!! (Don't get me wrong, the clients are nice but I'm happier with email)

 

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By ShirleyM
01st Sep 2011 14:38

@petew

I've PM'd the clause to you.

One other reason I use outsourcing that I forgot to mention ... I am the sole accountant in my practice, and I prefer to have some accounts prepared by somebody else just for the reassurance of having one person prepare them, and another to review them.

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By petew
01st Sep 2011 14:53

Thanks

Shirley, Flash you are both very kind thank you, I'll save those in case I need them!

If it works for you, as it obviously does, then thats great and I hope it goes as well for us.

Thanks again.

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