I have 250 small clients such as plumbers, hairdressers, subcontractors. MTD is coming and I need to get my clients up to speed.
If they ask which software should I buy I do not have an answer. I might say - not Sageone please its horrendous. Thats my knowledge of software.
Something simple to use and cheap - that works.
Advise from accountants only please I am sick of the ads on TV!
Replies (41)
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If you put a lot of these types of client onto Xero, QB or Sage then you will find yourself in a world of pain. Some will take to it but most will make a dogs breakfast and your time costs will get out of hand. Don't rule out Excel. I have heard that HMRC have commissioned an MTD Excel solution. That's what's needed - some sort of robust, client proof Excel product - preferably free!
We had the same with MTD VAT
Better NOT to be ahead of the game because the rules will change
@OP
just get the clients to walk first by preparing accurate purposeful spreadsheets
I have also been looking at Excel as the preferred solution since most clients that have a computer are using a simple bespoke version of mine. All I need now is to try to find out how to get bridging software which can submit the summary figures to HMRC. More concerning is how HMRC will pull all income of any tax individual. I understand that they can insert SOME people's state pension but it is not consistent. Some I have to insert manually. What about other pensions that people might have - how does that get submitted to HMRC. Also what about joint property income? At present I split this and put 50% on each person. What about ad-hoc income? Will this now be ignored. I could go on but as we know there are many supplementary pages to a tax return. how will MTD deal with all of this. Answers in less than 10,000 words please.
I thought MTD for ITSA will only apply to property income and the self-employed at first. The other sources of income you list, I assume, will be added to the final 'Tax return' submission, which will effectively bring together the 4 prior submissions into one.
In the future there are plans, I believe, to use third party data (recent OTS report suggests this), so I am sure your concerns will come into play at some point!
Pandle.Something simple to use and cheap - that works.
£2.50 per month if they sign up for you to pay.
You can then access it & sort out any problems.
Have VERY few queries from clients using it compared to QBO / Xero.
That would be my recommendation too. Amazing piece of software given the price. Ticks all the boxes for what my clients need it for
I would recommend VT Cashbook, or maybe VT Transaction Plus for the very few that know book-keeping properly. The good thing about VT is that transactions are very easily correctible, and you can restore data. Cloud accounting is just asking for trouble, as when a client makes a dog's dinner, there is no way to easily restore it to the last correct position.
Another vote from me for VT cashbook (free) and VT Transaction plus (£75 plus VAT pa). Both are spreadsheet based, and it's easy to edit and correct clients' entries, so long as you don't mind shuttling a backup copy of data between you and the client.
On balance, I'd prefer clients to have offline software. Their software, on their computer; so their responsibility! I'm finding more and more with cloud software that clients can, over time, develop an expectation that you will log in and sprinkle pixie dust on their half-*rsed attempts to book-keep. ("I've done all the work, can you just log-in and check it over" and that sort of thing; "Just a quick look, to fill in anything I missed and make it all balance!")
Answer - a good bookkeeper!
Most just like to show the pretty colours of the reports from the online offerings to their mates and bank manager
I suppose a bookkeeper's a bit of a luxury for the OP's 250 one-man-band clients.
I blame QB Online's tv commercials for kiddin' stupid people into believing they can go DIY with their bookkeping. (And, come to that, for kiddin' stupid people into believing that starting and running a business is a doddle).
I suppose a bookkeeper's a bit of a luxury for the OP's 250 one-man-band clients.
I blame QB Online's tv commercials for kiddin' stupid people into believing they can go DIY with their bookkeping. (And, come to that, for kiddin' stupid people into believing that starting and running a business is a doddle).
Their advert and Sage's bug the hell out of me. Want to throw something at the TV every time it comes on. Not just the message that anyone can do their own bookkeeping but the actual 'bossing' it type message, dumbing down entrepreneurs. Although to be fair, they are not aiming it at real entrepreneurs are they.
You mean your small clients don't walk down an escalator whilst at the same time producing a sales invoice on an i-pad ?
Make a sale first thing in the morning, send an i-pad invoice without breaking stride, and spend the rest of the day swanning around. Makes you want to push them down the escalator!
I wonder whether you can configure that i-pad and QBO to email customers who are 3 months late paying and have just brought up the matter of charges on the previous two years' invoices in an attempt to chisel something off this year's overdue bill. That's been my morning so far. Budding entrepreneurs take note!
Freeagent is possibly the easiest we have advised clients to use. its also free with Natwest, Mettle and RBS so easy to convince clients as there is no on cost at all.
Havent had one client yet not like it and so much easier than Xero/quickbooks
Their support is exceptional
I'msorryIhaven'taclue - works like a dream. Not had a single issue with it, I have with Xero and QBO.
Yes very stable and few problems, usually due to hmrc rather than the software. Clients have taken to it well as its easy and quite visual for them. Its relatively new in the software world so they are constantly developing. I particularly like that I can suggest improvements and they will look at them as part of their future developments. Its come a long way in the 2 years I have been using with clients.
It sells itself really if the client wants it free all they need to do is open a natwest mettle or rbs bank account. Finding a lot of newer clients are disgruntled with high street banks and happy to give the mettle challenger banks a try
Many thanks Louise and Sally,
And luckily for me I have a Nat West business account. Yay!
Another vote for FreeAgent. UK based, amazing support and free for life if you sign up for a NatWest or Mettle business account (Mettle account is free). I worked it out and bookkeeping for our clients on QBO takes 4x longer than FreeAgent, Xero 2-3 times longer and so many many more mistakes! Spreadsheet clients also take 2x as long. FreeAgent works seamlessly for MTD for VAT, is going to be introducing extracting data from scanned receipts in the next few months, and has a Capture for Later where they can take a photo of a receipt and store it in a folder on the software for the bookkeeper / accountant to attach. Game changing software.
This is the current list of providers. Oddly enough Xero don't appear yet:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/find-software-thats-compatible-with-making-t...
(MTD) ITSA is much harder from a technical perspective than (MTD) VAT that really arises from the fact that Income Tax requires a lot more data. Remember all the different SA1nn forms that have to be supplied.
Bridging will work for the quarterly returns, but there are quite a few annual figures and it is probably not worth bridging those as they don't require a digital audit trail (digital link).
HMRC do want free software to be available and have identified three suppliers who provide free options (particularly for lower turnover taxpayers)
in my experience with 100 small clients Free Agent is by far the best software.
Much better than Xero/QB
and free for customers of Nat West or Mettle
Also interested in this question. Whilst it does need further development yet, I am starting to think that solutions like ''counting up'' may work well.
I like the idea of a bank account app (without opening banking issues) that can simply be coded to expense types and copy invoices attached. It needs work yet, so that it is a useable option for accountants, but I can see how it would be a very simple option for those clients that do not want the faffing about, that comes with QBO/Xero and the like.
For other on here do feel free to tell me, if you do not think it would work well
For those types of client, of which I have many, most are not interested or inclined to do anything! They regard that as the accountants problem.
All integrated software will be a nightmare to manage in most instances, you know the type, ones where its easier to start again rather than correct the mistakes!
I am near certain that there will be a bridging solution as with MTD for VAT and that is the way I will be going for most of my clients.
The roll out of MTD will change many more times before we settle into the long term system. HMRC will learn and adjust once they face the whiplash of troubleshooting, which they will not be able to manage or even resource. This could take a very long while to iron out. Maybe long enough for me to retire from!!
VT software
Either the free cash book or the economical VT Transaction+ if they need a Sales Ledger.
Moved a client from QB to VT a few weeks ago after spending a lot of time finding many problems in QB.
VT is pretty painless to teach and sorting any errors is easy as it is easy to track transactions.
I've recently had a demo on Counting Up since one of my new clients has set up a Counting Up business account for his limited company. It's a bank account with built in software. This means you don't need to reauthorise every 90 days. The client can categorise the income and expenses, but you can change it, and there is a journal function. It produces a TB, profit and loss and balance sheet and is equipped to handle MTD for VAT. They are confident they are going to also include MTD for ITSA so I am watching with interest.
That's an interesting one to watch, Austin.
My only issue is that, at the foot of their web page, it says they're not a bank viz:
Countingup is not a bank. Counting Ltd designs and operates the Countingup websites and app. The Countingup business current account is an e-money account provided by Prepay Technologies Ltd (PPT) which is an electronic money institution authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority under the Electronic Money Regulations 2011 (FRN 900010) for the issuance of electronic money. As E-money accounts are not protected by the Financial Services Scheme (FSCS), PPS holds an amount equivalent to the money in Countingup current accounts in a safeguarding account with Barclays Bank PLC in accordance with the Electronic Money Regulations 2011 which gives customers protection against PPT’s insolvency. The Countingup Mastercard is issued by Prepay Technologies Limited pursuant to a licence by Mastercard International.
I'd want to figure out the ramifications of all that before recommending it to a client.
True - definitely a watch this space. I use Taxfiler for accounts preparation and tax computations and I've had conversations with them too. They already operate a bridging solution for VAT and are looking at one for ITSA so that might be a viable alternative for those clients who really don't need more than a spreadsheet solution - e.g. landlords.
Personally, I would always suggest Sage...cloud version if they are doing their own bookkeeping. It is far more easy to get what information you need as an accountant or to customise for your clients to use so that they don't use 000's of unnecessary accounts say for PPS.
I find both Xero & (even more so) Quickbooks horrendous to get reports from for year end purposes. Mind you, I have been using Sage since version 1 which was on the 4 inch disks although I am also Xero certified & experienced with Quickbooks (& VT & JD Edwards & even Pegasus.....my pet hate!)
MTD has been here for a while already!
You need to decide what you are offering - are you offering suggestions where clients make their own choice and you simply work with whatever they use (probably the cheapest one going and you'll need to learn to navigate 100 different programs) or are you looking to say we recommend "x" and provide a full package of support.
We go for the latter and 99% of our clients use Xero. We know it inside out and as everyone is using the same software we can streamline workflows. As an accountant potentially moving over several hundred clients you will likely get some good deals to sign them up in bulk.
Only person who can decide though is you. Trial different ones to see what suits you and your client base the best.
Personally I hate QuickBook but others love it. Alot of people on here recommend VT however most clients I know would take one look at it and wonder if we have gone back in time 50 years!
Agree with your assessment of Sage one though!
Don't discount Sage. Yes Sage One was rubbish but that product doesn't exist now.
It's Sage Start or Accounting now and a completely different product, so give it a try too.
I find this a very interesting and helpful discussion.
We have a variety of clients on a variety of programs.
One more thought....no one has mentioned bridging using VitalTax in conjunction with Excel. I know a senior tax lecturer who told me a while ago that he recommends it to his smaller clients and we have one client who is happy with it.
Anyone have any experience of it?
Hello.
We have clients that we use FreeAgent for that have never seen the software. We get them to update the bank feed every 3 months and that is their only input. We have found that it takes 25% of the time to update FreeAgent than it does to update a spreadsheet, so even with the licence fees it's massively cheaper - and we do much less hourly work for the same level of fees. If you register with them you can get large discounts off of the fees, the more clients you have signed up on your dashboard. To us it's a no brainer. Good luck to you in whatever you chose to do :-)