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Who's the worst client to act for?

Who's the worst client to act for?

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Hi All,

I would like to hear your views with regards to the worst types of clients to act for (based on personal experience).

Firstly what makes for a bad client? ....Taking months to pay? Querying the cost of the accounts? Hopeless at keeping records? Taking months to respond to information requests? Dropping their files off right up to the deadline? Not telling you the full story?

If I had to narrow it down to a specific sector I'd say the construction industry e.g Builders. From my own experience they tend to do all of the above! After that, I would probably say Psychologists! 

Does anyone actively avoid acting for a particular client/sector?

(Who are the Top 5 offenders?)

Replies (60)

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By Steve McQueen
31st Jul 2013 14:40

A long list

But in my view the worst are those who think they know what accountants do, but who don't really.

Those who interfere in stuff that they just shouldn't and who try to second guess you at each turn.

In my experience they tend to include:

Lawyers

IFA's

Sports / Celebrity Agents

 

 

Thanks (3)
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By RR-80
31st Jul 2013 14:44

Ah, yes IFA's

IFA's.....I would have listed them too but I only work on one client file so thought that might be a little unfair!!! ...obviously not!!

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By chrisdxuk
31st Jul 2013 14:44

Bad clients

I don't believe so much in "bad clients" per se but where I have quoted "badly" Lost money and never able to recover it subsequently on other work for them. Not so much the clients fault but my own

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By Moonbeam
31st Jul 2013 14:57

The Charming, Vague ones

When you first meet them they seem lovely people.

When presented with accounts including more payments allocated to their Director's loan account than you can shake a stick at there is a long delay while they think it over.

When pushed to let you know whether they approve the accounts they will say, sorry, but these figures don't feel right.

They are unable to tell you what figure would feel right, and where you should allocate the constituent parts of the journal that would be required.

After that, they are not easy to contact, and are not keen to pay for your time. Why would they, when your figures are so wrong?

Thanks (3)
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By RR-80
31st Jul 2013 14:57

Yes, but aren't certain clients price sensitive?

Hi Chris,

It's often difficult to quote on a job particularly if it's a new client in an unfamiliar sector or a new client who has just started up and not yet earning a lot. 

But going back to your point, are you saying that as long as the fee income is right that's all that matters?

....I guess so, but most of the worst clients that I deal with are the one's that won't accept a high price from the start...

 

 

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By RR-80
31st Jul 2013 15:06

Delaying tactic

We often find that some clients will 'refer' us to people and then take that as an opportunity to delay payment (thinking that as they have done a good deed they deserve a longer period to pay)

Younger clients 'pay on the nail' but the older ones tend to procrastinate.

 

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By chrisdxuk
31st Jul 2013 15:11

Price sensitivity

I concur RR-80 the "awkward" squad are invariably the first to moan about fees and the like, but you can never know this at the outset. Hence, you quote what "feels" right based on that initial meeting and review of previous sets of accounts and whathaveyous eg Cashbooks etc. I usually operate on a 5 year horizon; the first year loss/breakeven second year breakeven/profit, years 3,4 and 5 know the client their systems and hopefully, now profitable. I try to maximise my "other sales" eg Co Sec, Admin, consultancy [normally liaising with the bank] and ad hoc

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By Peter Kilvington
31st Jul 2013 15:25

The worst and the best are

Pubs.

Now I know a lot of you hate pubs but I do not have a problem with them.  Some of them are lovely and great to deal with but some are a hand holding exercise which end up with VAT and PAYE arrears.

I have never had a problem getting paid, normally payment is within a few hours of the invoice being issued.  

In the bad class was a pub which managed to lose a substantial amount of money in a year (6 figures), burn down and then flood when being rebuilt.  The owners fell out with each other, the DPS banning the other director from the premises despite him covering the losses.  The police were once called to enforce the ban and due to the law they had to.  Other things happened that were so strange that if I wrote a book about it no one would believe me.

In the good class is any pub that has a weekly turnover in excess of £10,000 net per week where the operator does not drink.  These are great to work with.

Other bad clients are subbies who take on their first subcontractors, or people who go into business on a whim with a friend who has an idea but no money.

Any potential client that approaches you in the pub after too many drinks is trouble.

Don't do accounts for friends they stretch the definition of friendship too far deliver information late expect mates rates and pay late.

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By taxhound
31st Jul 2013 16:06

Those who check every bxxxxx entry in the accounts

and ask long lists of questions about them, eg why you have treated flat rate vat as you have, why your sundry figure is 32p less than they were expecting etc etc etc and then moan about the fee. 

I have one client in particular like this.  They are nice people and I know they just want to understand, but they do this every year down to the minutest detail, to the point where I am expecting the sack on a regular basis because it feels like they have zero faith in my ability.  It is a one man contractor limited company with wife doing the books and it drives me crazy every year - getting the sack would be quite a relief!

Non payers are also, quite obviously, a complete waste of space too.

 

On the plus side, I have an excellent IFA client!

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By bernard michael
31st Jul 2013 16:01

My worst in order are:-

Solicitors

Pubs

IFA's

Indian Takeaways

Friends of "man down the pub"

 

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Replying to Husbandofstinky:
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By frustratedwithhmrc
31st Jul 2013 16:47

Friends of "man down the pub"

bernard michael wrote:
Friends of "man down the pub"

Yes, I have to admit this is a particular affliction of mine.

Hare-brained Tax Scheme:

https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/anyanswers/question/hare-brained-tax-scheme

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By jon_griffey
31st Jul 2013 16:25

Don't forget..

...pro bono jobs such as small charities.  Guaranteed to suck up your time and they always drop the books in the afternoon before the AGM.  New treasurer invariably hasn't got a clue.  Someone at the AGM has always got it in for the committee and the 'auditor' even though you do it for free.

Pubs and shops - is it me or is impossible to make any money on these jobs?

Tied pubs are to be avoided - they always end in bankruptcy.

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By Flash Gordon
31st Jul 2013 16:33

'Friends'

That is, the ones who you've not seen or heard from in ages, who expect mates rates, don't tell you quite how appalling it all is and then try and be 'helpful' while you're doing the job by supplying multitudes of spreadsheets to 'save you time'. And then they quibble about paying. 

Next up are the ones who tell you how to run your business but don't seem to know how to run theirs. But they have lots of ideas of how to put costs through the business that aren't remotely business-related. Plus they don't want to pay for anything. And they look like something out of the Hobbit (seriously). 

Still, it's entertainment and you can look back on it and laugh (nervously).

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By ShirleyM
31st Jul 2013 16:56

Same as Moonbeam

The Directors with overdrawn loan accounts, who don't understand they cannot take out more than the company earns in profit after tax, and I spend hours EVERY year explaining the problem and the consequences ... and they promptly ignore me and do it all again!

The excuses are hilarious although I don't find them amusing at the time. The one that winds me up the most is:

Well .... how do you expect me to pay my bills?

 

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By Ken Howard
31st Jul 2013 17:10

Those that never trust you and think they know best

My worst ever clients are those, for whatever reason, just don't trust you and have an arrogant attitude that they know best.  Invariably, they end up in deep trouble one way or another.  Some just can't accept that someone else may have better knowledge/experience!  Usually educated/professional people.  Good to see IFA's already mentioned, but I'd add solicitors and teachers.

One classic case was a guy starting out as a freelancer.  At our first meeting, I told him that our standard monthly fee included the company formation, tax registrations, etc. and gave him a few factsheets and template for book-keeping records.  The next I heard from him was that he'd formed a company and registered for VAT, PAYE, etc!  Needless to say, he screwed it all up and it took hours to rewind it all and do it properly.  A couple of months later, I asked him to send me his book-keeping - what a nightmare - he'd completely ignored my template and had done his own which was completely useless and didn't even add up - he'd also claimed all kinds of non-business expenses even though I'd given him a factsheet as to what he could and couldn't claim.  It went on like this for the first year.  After a year, he started to actually listen to me and take heed of what I said, but he still had an annoying tendency to stray and do things his own way.  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink!!

Best clients are the likes of tradesmen, shops, , etc., who at least realise and openly admit they havn't a clue and just let us get on with it.  Most can be trained to make our lives easier if we set them up with some simple systems - maybe just a box for them to throw all the paperwork into is often a solution - sure beats lots of lost/damaged paperwork when it's been randomly spread between home, van, jeans, etc.

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By andy.partridge
31st Jul 2013 17:10

Solicitors

Without a doubt.

We have had three solicitor clients. In all cases we didn't get paid the full amount and in one case not at all. In two out of three the client went out of their way to be rude about the quality of the work, despite the fact it was absolutely clear they didn't have a clue what they were talking about. The subtext seemed to be, 'try suing us for the money and see how far you get'.

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By frustratedwithhmrc
31st Jul 2013 17:27

Alcoholics...

Who think their bar bills are a company expense...

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By Tosie
31st Jul 2013 17:53

my list

Solicitors.

Those who employ incompetent book-keepers with the book-keeper telling the client that they have done everything.

Neighbours.............................

Local charities.

People regardless of trade who are dropping the cheque off first thing in the morning never to be heard of until they require something else.

In general cash businesses.

Start ups a particular hate of mine.

Last but not least Court of Protection Reports for which I don't charge because I feel sorry for the person but end up spending a week sorting the bits and pieces out.

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By wilcoskip
31st Jul 2013 20:25

Control freaks who know just enough about accountancy to be dangerous but not enough to see sense or actually get anything done.  They want something done a particular way, and then want it changed. 

Things will be late.  Penalties will accrue.  Their business will suffer.

And it will always, always be your fault.

Gits.

 

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By dbowleracca
31st Jul 2013 20:26

Easy one for me to answer....
The worst clients I find are the ones who like to pay themselves before they pay anyone else, like their suppliers (including us) as HMRC. Who spend more than the business can afford when a little cost cutting would resolve everything.

I find the ones who are the opposite - pay themselves after everyone else and leave money in the business to provide for growth - are by far the best. These can be in any sector, and I have them in all of them - solicitors, IFAs, builders you name it.

I am now focussing almost exclusively on this latter type and the first lot will slowly be getting the sack as they get replaced.

They seem to want you to work some magic every year to save them tax, and after exhausting every possible avenue they expect you to do something illegal or immoral to help them out - but then don't want to pay you for it!!

Grrrrr!

Thanks (5)
Replying to ScribbleD:
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By exceljockey
06th Aug 2013 10:07

this is so true

dbowleracca wrote:
The worst clients I find are the ones who like to pay themselves before they pay anyone else, like their suppliers (including us) as HMRC. Who spend more than the business can afford when a little cost cutting would resolve everything. I find the ones who are the opposite - pay themselves after everyone else and leave money in the business to provide for growth - are by far the best. These can be in any sector, and I have them in all of them - solicitors, IFAs, builders you name it. I am now focussing almost exclusively on this latter type and the first lot will slowly be getting the sack as they get replaced. They seem to want you to work some magic every year to save them tax, and after exhausting every possible avenue they expect you to do something illegal or immoral to help them out - but then don't want to pay you for it!! Grrrrr!

A client hasn't paid HMRC, wants me to "do a number" on his accounts because he is under pressure financially but wont sell his BMW M5 and stop racing other cars on the weekend.

 

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Replying to Confused78:
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By DMGbus
06th Aug 2013 13:18

Parasites

exceljockey wrote:

dbowleracca wrote:
The worst clients I find are the ones who like to pay themselves before they pay anyone else, like their suppliers (including us) as HMRC. Who spend more than the business can afford when a little cost cutting would resolve everything. I find the ones who are the opposite - pay themselves after everyone else and leave money in the business to provide for growth - are by far the best. These can be in any sector, and I have them in all of them - solicitors, IFAs, builders you name it. I am now focussing almost exclusively on this latter type and the first lot will slowly be getting the sack as they get replaced. They seem to want you to work some magic every year to save them tax, and after exhausting every possible avenue they expect you to do something illegal or immoral to help them out - but then don't want to pay you for it!! Grrrrr!

A client hasn't paid HMRC, wants me to "do a number" on his accounts because he is under pressure financially but wont sell his BMW M5 and stop racing other cars on the weekend.

 

From a job satisfaction viewpoint these type of clients who I consider to be "parasites" are the lowest of the low. 

Extravagant spending at the expense of everyone else in the world, be it creditors in general or tax authorities. 

There are other "difficult" clients from time to time but these I'm happy to help as these other "difficult" clients might have genuine ability issues with running businesses (not suited to self employment or fall on hard times) or keeping records (not their skill set), but they do seem to appreciate help given and try to pay their way instead of feeding off everyone else in the world like the parasite like clients occasionally encountered. 

 

 

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By GuestXXX
17th Mar 2015 15:58

.

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By JFW99
01st Aug 2013 00:22

The very worst

My ex wife.

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By zarathustra
01st Aug 2013 09:29

School teachers

Don't listen, don't have a clue and always know best. Tight fisted to boot.

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By dreamcatcher
01st Aug 2013 09:49

Good question

For me the worst type of clients to act for come in 2 forms;

1. Those that don't listen, read your letters and constantly listen to what their mate claims their accountant has done or said.

2. Those who employee incompetent bookkeepers (or worse an accountant) who claim to know it all when in reality they struggle to present a decent TB and accounts pack at the year end. 

In terms of client which have presented me with the most problems over the years, here's my top five. 

1. Construction industry (in particular subbies!!)

2. Solicitors

3. IFAs

4. GPs

5. Dentists

 

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Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
01st Aug 2013 09:56

Trust my gut

Can't really generalise on an industry in that I've had bad & great in most and so my worst clients are the ones where I see the email arrive, or their phone number appear on my phone, and have to take a deep breath before answering.

Fortunately, these days, it only happens a couple of times.

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Replying to Glennzy:
Red Leader
By Red Leader
01st Aug 2013 12:25

wow

Solicitors seem to get the most votes. It just makes me glad that I have always avoided them, though mainly because of solicitor accounts rules. Looks like I dodged a bullet.

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David Winch
By David Winch
01st Aug 2013 12:46

Well . . .

Pretty much all of my clients are solicitors in the sense that my instructions come from them - but of course the 'ultimate client' is their client in the dock.

I sometimes have some misgivings about the violent ones but generally the clients are very glad to have someone trying to help.

Obviously the ones who are in court for the first time present a different kind of need from the 'regulars' who know the ropes.

All of the clients are under stress to a greater or lesser degree and that is a factor I bear in mind.  It is rarely that I find a client really bad to work with.  So I guess I am lucky!

David

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By ver1tate
01st Aug 2013 13:25

Those who check every bxxxxx entry in the accounts

I know exactly what you mean. I have one client who has one property which he is letting, but trying to explain the allowances he can claim is like wading through toffee. Initially I quoted him a fee based on past experience of such accounts, but the number of e mails and phone calls I have to make to explain even the simplest matter, is making my fee vanish. 

By the way when you talk of IFA, I trust you are not referring to the Institute of Financial Accountants.

But, seriously, how IFAs can charge £200 an hour for advising on a pension plan, which seldom delivers the promised value, and sleep at night is unbelievable.

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By ver1tate
01st Aug 2013 13:32

Well . . .

I worked on a solicitor's return for just over a year before parting company with him. He employed a full time book keeper who had not the slightest knowledge of book keeping, and caused me an enormous amount of time correcting her mistakes.

I told him that if he did not employ a properly qualified book keeper, such as a member of the AIB, I would no longer be willing to act on his behalf. Needless to say, we parted company.

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By Fenella
01st Aug 2013 15:20

This is very interesting ..from the other side of the bar

I am currently putting together the Year End pack for our accountants and would like to know what makes a good one.

I have been a bookkeeper for various companies over the years, but always had an accountant or FD above me to handle the year end. I am now working for a company that employs external accountants and have been 'hand-held' by a retired accountant through the year end process.

We seem to have done most of the accountants work for them, even down to going through last years statement of accounts crossing out the previous years figures and writing in this year's figures. Really all the accountants need to do (apart from check that we've done it right) is calculate the tax.

 

Is this normal? I can't help feeling that we've wasted a lot of time that my employers can't afford (not just my time but the retired accountant is charging by the hour) to do something that the accountants will do anyway (as otherwise how can they tell the accounts are correct?). Doing the books is just a small part of my job but when I look through my diary I have spent an inordinate amount of time on the year end accounts!

So do our accountants love us or hate us?

 

 

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By bernard michael
01st Aug 2013 15:32

Fenella - the more helpful your working papers are the less the accountant will put their fees up 

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Replying to chatman:
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By chas01
02nd Aug 2013 11:58

WORST CLIENTS

The worst for me is when a client's mother or wife is brought in to do the books.

Try telling the director that she hasn't a clue and the company is flying blind and the accounts she produces are meaningless!

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By andy.partridge
01st Aug 2013 15:52

@Fenella

I think you have to look at it from the point of view that much of what you have done is for your benefit ie. you have a much greater appreciation of the work, you are able to use that to communicate information to your employer and act as a go-between with the external accountants.

I agree with you that at least some of what you have done will need to be independently done by the external accountants. If it turns out that what they do is more a less a duplication of what you have done I would expect them to be able to scale down what they do next year if you commit to doing the same scope and quality of work.

I would worry if the accountants simply took your numbers and calculated tax purely based on them. If I were you I would want a more diligent approach from them, unless you are willing to take full responsibility for any mistakes!

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Replying to Blackfalcon:
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By B Roberts
02nd Aug 2013 11:27

Who is responsible ?

andy.partridge wrote:

I would worry if the accountants simply took your numbers and calculated tax purely based on them. If I were you I would want a more diligent approach from them, unless you are willing to take full responsibility for any mistakes!

I am assuming from the previous comment that the company is below the Audit threshold ?

If so, what level of "diligent approach" would you expect ?

Also, it is the Directors of the company (and not the Accountants, Auditors or anybody else) who is responsible for the Accounts.

In my experience Accountants like to portray the image of responsibility, but a quick read of any audit report will soon put you right as to who is responsible and who is not.

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Glenn Martin
By Glenn Martin
01st Aug 2013 19:50

Franchise companies for me
Not because of the book keeping but usually because they nearly always end in tears. They never make the money expected and usually end up in court with the client losing his shirt and his redundancy payment. Also as already said the man in the pub does us no favours. The old classic "my mate has a good accountant, never pays any tax and is a millionaire"

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Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
02nd Aug 2013 01:41

Marketing people

Especially the ones who were a suit with no tie.  They are the worst in my experience and tend to always lie. I have had to take marketing people several times to small claims to get my money 

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By Vaughan Blake1
02nd Aug 2013 09:48

The Worst Job Ever

What a great post for a good whinge.  Very Derek & Clive!

My hates are, the client that look at the accounts and say 'These aren't right, I have made way more/less (delete as appropriate) profit than that".  I then go through every figure and entry trying to reconcile the client's perception to the reality.  All the figures stack up, there is a lull of a week or so and then the client repeats "These accounts can't possibly be right".

And, clients that send stuff in piecemeal thinking they have sent everthing on day one and say, but youv'e already had such and such.

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Replying to SNOOPDOG:
By jon_griffey
02nd Aug 2013 16:55

The piecemean approach

Vaughan Blake1 wrote:

And, clients that send stuff in piecemeal thinking they have sent everthing on day one and say, but youv'e already had such and such.

 

And the clients where you send them a list of things you need, and they eventually let you have half of it.  Send them a list of the remaining things and they send you half of that and so it goes on....

And the clients who actually do send things in piecemeal - genuinely thinking they are being helpful by letting you have half of the bank statements 'to be getting on with' so you can make a start.

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By andy.partridge
02nd Aug 2013 10:16

Or . . .

The client that looks at the pre-tax profit and says, 'No, that's not the balance in the bank account'.

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Replying to atleastisoundknowledgable...:
Red Leader
By Red Leader
02nd Aug 2013 11:10

@Sarah

I've noticed previously your view of men wearing a suit but no tie. You've obviously had a bad experience. I just have to say that I quite like to wear a suit without a tie these days, so I hope your view is not widespread!

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Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
02nd Aug 2013 13:15

Yes I have had bad experiences

Hi . No I don,t hold it against all men who wear no ties.   Most of my friends are male and wear no ties.  It is just the ones who are involved in marketing - self help and proclaim they can turn businesses around .  Proclaim they know everything.  Get companies to change their policy on everything rather then looking at what is good.     They deliberately wear no tie as they believe it puts people at  ease.   Having been ripped off and having to go to court to get my money there was a pattern developing.   I also found out on many occasions the same people have conned their clients.    Some of these guys pretend to be consultants when they have no experience of that trade and have led people down the wrong path.  Not only have I been burnt, some of my clients have been taken in by the man with no tie marketing type I can change everything for you..  Really friendly chilled out type.  That is until it comes to paying you or getting paid or their hounding their clients for money before they have actually achieved anything . 

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By law man
02nd Aug 2013 14:41

solicitors as clients of an accountant

 

I am sorry to hear that some solicitors are such bad clients. I worked with or for large firms and companies, and always enjoyed good relations with our accountants.

Solicitors should be treated no differently than other clients. Make sure you send a letter of engagement with all appropriate terms covered, agree the job specification, agree fees, and take money on account if you do not trust the credit worth of the solicitor client.

Set out clear expectations: say what you will do and what you expect your solicitor client to do. If you encounter "job creep" make it clear this will be charged extra.

If you do your job preofessionally and well, you are entitled to expect the same from the client.

As regards Andy Partridge's "'try suing us [i.e. the solicitor who is your client] for the money and see how far you get'": well do it. Why not? If you kept your paperwork properly, issue a county court summons and await payment (unless the client is bankrupt).

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Replying to johngroganjga:
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By andy.partridge
02nd Aug 2013 15:41

Forgotten

law man wrote:

As regards Andy Partridge's "'try suing us [i.e. the solicitor who is your client] for the money and see how far you get'": well do it. Why not? If you kept your paperwork properly, issue a county court summons and await payment (unless the client is bankrupt).

You've omitted the prospect of a counter-claim. It's a brave person who takes on a firm that knows the system much better than you do. Taking legal action can only be a last resort because the outcome is so uncertain.
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By mary969
02nd Aug 2013 14:51

worst cleints are disengaged

As I am about to retire soon. The worst clients I ever had were, two mentally ill, who I found threatening. Subcontractors whose friends down the pub get huge unrealistic tax repayments.  People who nit pick every entry, when I was actually correct and they were wrong. Even had an email over a !p difference in a set of accounts,  Got rid of those over the years and now only have a really nice band of clients who are salt of the earth and who I hope to remain friendly with, after I retire. Got a good buyer too, who they will like and be happy with

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By RR-80
02nd Aug 2013 16:00

Nothing like a Friday afternoon whinge..

...it seems like I've really hit a nerve with this post!

..OK its nearly 16:00 on a Friday afternoon and so I openly admit to having put down my calculator nearly an hour ago!....

A rough scan through the posts has revealed the following:

TOP 5 WORST CLIENTS ARE:

1. Solicitors (7)

2. IFAs (6)

3. Pubs (3)

3. Man in the Pub (3)

5. Construction Industry (2)

5. Charities (2)

5. Subcontractors (2)

 

...I'd honestly have thought there'd be more votes for brickies 

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By andy.partridge
02nd Aug 2013 16:10

Surprised

I thought men in a suit and no tie would be higher. 

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By RR-80
02nd Aug 2013 16:16

I hope not!

....er I'd better just point out that for the last 6 months I've been wearing a suit with no tie!

 

...Just out of interest how many accountants don't wear ties?

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By bernard michael
02nd Aug 2013 16:21

I only wear a suit ( + tie) when I visit clients - never in the office, where comfort is the King

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