uk/top-firms-imposing-poshness-test- Accountants

uk/top-firms-imposing-poshness-test- Accountants

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http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/top-firms-imposing-poshness-test-31302426.html

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jun/15/poshness-tests-block-working-class-applicants-at-top-companies

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33109052

This story has been printed on quite a few papers today .   How true do you believe this story to be?.

 Do you think it filters down to medium size accountants and them smaller practices?

  If so I feel this is very sad for the youngsters coming up who are trying to achieve.   It should be on merit.   I appreciate accounting web members will have various views. 

I am just wondering what everyone thinks as it is a interesting story relating to accountants. 

Replies (27)

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By Jekyll and Hyde
15th Jun 2015 13:45

Hasn't it always happened?

Look at it from another angle, smaller clients have always imposed an anti-poshness test when appointing accountants.

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By Alan Davies
15th Jun 2015 15:28

Probably half true

I can see that certain firms would want presentation & communication of employees to be up to scratch from day 1 as with big firms the trainees are usually straight out to clients.  Individuals who know how to act & dress accordingly without guidance are more likely to come from homes where they have the appropriate examples ie professional parents & good schools/University.

I guess this then leads to trying to filter out those who don't have those role models - which they may do by making generalisations.

In any case the work force will be much poorer for it.  Diversity is generally recognised as being a valueable force in the workplace and its all about getting different ways of thinking and points of view. As well as race/gender etc economic background is a very useful diversity to have helping to move away from 'group think' and allow real innovation into the business environment.   

 

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By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
15th Jun 2015 15:46

.

If you look at the other side of it, does going to a "posh" school leave you no better off then going to a state school?

Seems unlikely to me. I went to a right [***] hole of a school (now demolished, and shiny new school built, it was after all the buildings fault, not the kids or the teachers) and I can tell you very few of its alumni are working for 'top firms' in fact out of my year group of 150 or so I think only 10 of us went on to university let alone much further. 

However top firms hire on talent.

They will take commoners too. Like me.

At school I was thought of as a bit "posh". At work quite the reverse, and yes I had to put on my "work voice" as if I used my "not getting beaten up in the playground voice" chances are no-one would have understood a word I said. 

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paddle steamer
By DJKL
15th Jun 2015 16:42

Not sure it will filter down

I am not sure it filters down, however I say this with no direct experience so slightly a gut feeling.

As the articles indicate there seems to be a selection bias as to which universities someone requires to have attended to be even considered, they mention Russell Group but I suspect they need to add  the odd other university like  say St Andrews to the list. Should employers be castigated for this bias, those universities have , in the main, the highest entry requirements so ceteris paribus have the strongest academic (per school results I hasten to add) candidates, not always the best candidates, but academic ability is always helpful re accountancy, law etc?

Of course this then begs the question who is the better candidate, the private school pupil who got everything fed to him/her on a plate, model answers, crammed tuition, who achieves AAAAB at  Scottish Highers or the state school candidate from a difficult background who achieves ABBBC?

Some universities like Edinburgh try to target and weight their intake towards state school pupils/first in family to university  students etc  and I do not believe they think such an approach has in any way weakened their graduates; I expect the real solution is to get the leading universities to be more inclusive and this will eventually lead to stronger diversity into the larger firms, but it is a slow process.

Does this bias filter down to the next tier? Possibly at the larger mid sized firms but I suspect as one goes down in firm size the selection process is less regimented and those who attended other universities are then more considered- of course part of the issue now, for accountants, is the smaller firms take on fewer and fewer trainees as the management of their training ,coupled with the costs, make trainees  somewhat expensive, so I expect there are far fewer trainee positions these days. The 2 partner firm I was with up to the end of the 1990s gave up taking on trainees by circa 1992, there were just not economic. This does lead to issues, if the larger firms and larger mid tiers mainly recruit from  the Russell Group then there are a large number of other candidates chasing not that many positions.

Getting a training contract was never easy, in 1985 I applied to over 100 firms got offered three interviews and I think I only got the place with Hodgson Impey because someone else had either last minute rejected the place or has failed their university exams, I certainly only go the offer in July to start in August and the interview process was very short- 15 minute chat and offered the apprenticeship there and then.

Back then there were far fewer graduates and in Scotland the graduates had to hold a relevant degree or equivalent so the number of competitors was much lower; it now does look like a very  different and more difficult marketplace for recent graduates all clutching their 2:1 or 1st (because hardly anyone gets a 2:2 these days.), no wonder large firms go through this minimum 2:1 from X,Y and z university routine, what other sifting methods do they have?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
15th Jun 2015 18:30

I sometimes think it does filter down.

Hi 

I think we can all be guilty of it but not necessarily just about poshness.

I have often been asked about my background from clients in Scotland when they pick up my Irish accent,  and they do ask about where you are from in Dublin and the school you went to.

 I did go to a all girls private school in Dublin.   I have had clients say to their clients when then introduce me to others that I am from the posh side of Dublin.     I must admit I find it strange as all that matters is that you are good at your job.  

However I must confess because of my background  and school.  I do admire women who went to a all girls school whether it be state or private.  So in that respect I am making a judgement as well and being judgemental as the same time.  

My son is in a amazing state school but I always feel that the girls in state school lose out in sport and other character building because of growing up.  There are no all girls schools in Scotland which I think is a great pity.  Many may disagree with me but I was horrified when my parents said they would change me to a school where boys would attend.  ( I think it was punishment ) I was very sporty and knew that would change as our school was extremely competitive.  It mattered a great deal to me. 

  Some things work for different folks and my sisters and brothers went to mixed state and private schools and loved them.   I think you should have the right to choose.  My parents chose which suited each one of us the best. 

I brought the issue up at a TedEx talk in Glasgow  about how girls who go to mixed schools with boys drop out of sport quicker than girls who went to a all girls school.    I could not believe the amount of business women who agreed with me about the disgraceful attitude state schools have towards female sports and how they felt sport helped you learn how to cope with the ups and downs and team building in business.   It is good to want and win and be on the best team and part of that process is learning to lose and get up again.

 

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By Matrix
15th Jun 2015 19:14

Maybe these candidates are of a higher calibre?

 

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By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
15th Jun 2015 19:20

.

In my dead end state school, the sports was about the only thing they did well. Boys and Girls. Infact the highlight of the school year for many (not me!) was the Boys v Girls end of year matches, which lasted much of the summer term covering just about every imaginable sport that didn't require much equipment. Swimming, diving (we had use of the local sport center inc diving pool), hockey, rugby, football, basket ball, rounders, netball, tennis, running and other athletics. I think some even did squash and other things. The results got read out in assembly and marked up on the boards, and usually a very close run thing. Infact the girls rugby team in my year morphed into the local league side for a while. They utterly demolished the boys team to the point none of the boys wanted to be on it! 

 

 

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Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
16th Jun 2015 09:59

Sport Boys v girls

Yes we played against the all boys schools all the time and beat them sometimes but around where I live none of the mixed boys and girls schools where not any where near our standard.  The results were printed in the local papers all the time so you knew. 

I am glad to hear your school was good but the simple fact in a lot of schools  the boys have a football pitch but the majority of state schools do not have a rugby pitch.  As a girl I want a choice of sports not just Rugby or Football . Even though I am big fan of Rugby I was not built to play it. 

The simple fact is.  There is a far bigger dropout of girls playing sport in mixed schools for obvious reasons. 

 

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By NHGlos
16th Jun 2015 09:26

Does this not happen in any firm, regardless of sector or size, anyway? The current day approach to recruitment and selection is supposed to be fair and unbiased but anyone recruiting can apply their own opinion and subjectivity during a selection process if they so wish. I'm not saying it's right or that it goes on everywhere, but rather that the large firms mentioned may have been "caught out" due to the size of their presence.

I didn't go down the university route (at least not in the traditional sense), but have always considered that some universities are better than others in genuine ways, so I feel it's perfectly understandable that being a graduate from one university as opposed to another may work in your favour (the issue of university recruitment and selection may be another issue). The government promote the benefits of a university education (and I'm a believer in for education in general, not just for a career) but nobody seems to want to see that some universities are better than others and that not all degrees are the same. Having worked for an educational establishment, I feel my opinion is valid.

I went to a typical comprehensive and in my time I've worked with/for people in a variety of contexts who have had an education from higher tier universities and/or trained with the top 10 accountancy firms. I can honestly say that I've never encountered and form of "elitism" or any other form of "upper hand" attitude. However, it was well known amongst the fellow accountants I have worked with that some firms (particularly one or two of the big 4, but also smaller firms) enshrine a sense of elitism amongst their trainees - one colleague who had worked for such a firm referred to it as brainwashing during their induction!

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By mrme89
16th Jun 2015 09:31

Some of the state schools you describe sound exquisite.

 

We played football for 5 years throughout high school and we had to bring our own ball.

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By User deleted
16th Jun 2015 11:35

University ? …

For the current generation almost everyone goes to university by default. However, go back a little to previous generations and very few took this route, much less gap years etc.

There has of course been the long running debate about the usefulness / appropriateness of university in the context of the end goal – is university the correct route for certain disciplines or are you better just going straight to work – articled etc.

Certainly in parts of the city they would prefer to school leavers, who they can teach, rather than graduates who can have an over inflated sense of their own worth whilst contributing little value, and yet may need to spend another 4 years learning in a business environment rather than starting straight from school – i.e. xx years behind

Looking at it dispassionately, is university the right route for someone wishing to become an accountant or would they be better taking another way?

Probably one of the most valuable things public rather than state schools impart to the child is confidence in their own abilities rather than pure academic performance.

In fact there was an article the other day in the new on how many intelligent graduates fail at interviews. They needed to be taught how to look someone in the eye, shake hands & all the other ‘niceties’ to ensure easy social interaction – nothing to do with academic ability but more a rounded individual

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Replying to GlobalTax:
Red Leader
By Red Leader
16th Jun 2015 12:38

sport at school

Does British Bulldogs count?

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Replying to thevaliant:
RLI
By lionofludesch
18th Jun 2015 11:23

Bulldog

Red Leader wrote:

Does British Bulldogs count?

Loved it.  Rugby without the distraction of a ball.  A great spectacle with a couple of hundred kids playing it.

Our school wasn't posh.  Good at sculpture - or at least Henry Moore was.  Very poor at Rugby Union yet managed to produced four or five pro players every year.

Anyway - closer to topic - there are plenty of clients who just want to be spoken to on their own level.

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By Anthony123
16th Jun 2015 12:57

Accountants

In my experience accountancy firms are a lot better than others when it comes to diversity.

In my contact with the upper end of the legal profession there does seem to be significant, if unintended, bias not just to independent schools but to certain top boarding and London independent schools and to those who have attended Oxford or Cambridge.

The issue as always though is how far do you go back? It's been suggested above that the universities need to select from a more diverse base. But are children from certain backgrounds even doing A levels? How do you overcome parental disinterest in educational achievement? Or indeed the fact that some state schools have very low expectations (perhaps realistic but still not helpful for the very few who might manage to achieve more) of their pupils?

Given the amount of home study and coursework needed to get good GCSEs and A levels how does a child whose home background is unstable ever stand a chance?

I do think the move back to entry at A level or earlier into some firms is a positive one and may be a real incentive for children from less privileged backgrounds - so long of course as someone is making them aware such opportunities exist.

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By Harrison88
16th Jun 2015 13:28

Rubbish

From my experience in the Big Four, this is rubbish. I never experienced any resistance to recruiting people or favouring them based on background. It was very much if you got a 2.1 and answered the application form correctly you got through to the next stage. After that it was the competency tests and interviews.

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By User deleted
16th Jun 2015 13:30

As a slight aside ...

... for a view of the absurdity and pointlessness of "inclusivity" I suggest watching this weeks episode (3) of Man Down.

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By Brodders
17th Jun 2015 11:34

Apprenticeships


With university becoming ever more expensive and part of the debate being around whether it is right going to uni if you want to be an accountant/tax adviser, I hope more people might get to know about doing the ATT through an apprenticeship route

www.att.org.uk/Employers/apprenticeships

A great way for firms and individuals to get top quality talent without following the traditional uni route and hopefully will show the poshness test is redundant

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By David Gordon FCCA
17th Jun 2015 12:22

Poshness ain't the issue.

 

 WE all use different voices.

 Nevertheless, our business depends on our staff being able to speak to clients.

 For more senior staff thay have to be able to speak to HMRC and similar. Especially if they have to appear at tax tribunals.

 Over x decades in the profession I have noticed that ability to speak closely equates ability to use the English language.

 As a pure-born East End / Essex boy, I nevertheless do not believe that "What's up guv'nor?" is the way to impress clients.

 Of my two grandaughters -Gawd bless 'em- the nine year old, at a local primary school, speaks beautifully. The lovely twenty something at university, has regressed to sort of grunts and shrieks. I know who I would rather have answering the telephone in my office.

 I have attended CPD meetings where members have stood up to speak but, sadly, appear to be unable to put two coherent words together.

The ability to speak grammatically, and clearly, really matters. Reverse-snobbery is not a constructive attitude. It is not a question of accent, whether Eton, Glasgow, or Hackney.

It is a question of care and attitude on the part of the speaker.

 

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By Tomazaan
17th Jun 2015 20:14

Silver spoon

An anecdote about my first husband James: he had a title, went to an independent school and was very, very "posh".  He was also a chartered accountant and on his first day at work he was sent out to a client in central London.  The client phoned up to say that he would not have James on the premises and James was sent back to the office in disgrace.  It turned out that this was not because James had done anything wrong but because the client's father had been butler to James's grandfather.  As James's boss told me after James died, being born with a silver spoon is normally helpful but not always!

In my longish career I have worked with all sorts of people from many different backgrounds and the only ones that have worried me are those who won't work not those who do.  I have never seen anyone take any notice of what school you went to or with what accent you speak. 

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By David Gordon FCCA
18th Jun 2015 11:04

Last comment

 

 There is a difference between "Posh" and speaking properly.

 When people talk about "Posh" speaking they often mean a sort of standard BBC talk of fifty years ago.

 Speaking is to the brain as the computer screen is to the computer.

 Be as knowledgeable as you wish, if you are incapable of clearly expressing yourself you get nowhere.

 Besides, I have noticed that being able to speak properly has a tangible economic benefit for the speaker.

 It is just a pity that it has become politically incorrect to tell someone they need to spend time learning to speak clearly, correctly, and to the point.

Verbal communication is as much a business tool as the "Cloud", or more so.

 

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Euan's picture
By Euan MacLennan
18th Jun 2015 11:16

I'm POSH

As a colonial boy who was born in Singapore in the days before BOAC started flying there, my parents and I used to travel by ship.  Port Out Starboard Home was definitely the rule so that you had a cabin on the cooler North side of the ship.

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Replying to Matrix:
Red Leader
By Red Leader
18th Jun 2015 11:26

accents

I once was talking with somebody from one of the very well known public schools. It was a fairly casual conversation but I was stumped when he talked about his "hace". I had never come across this word before.

He meant "house".

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By User deleted
18th Jun 2015 13:08

Lucky you weren't ...

... up t'north, in the Yorkshire/Derbyshire borderlands somewhere between Sheffield and Chesterfield they pronounce it [***]!

Anyway, so how many pineds did the pay for the hace, or were they so posh it was priced in guineas?

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Replying to mrme89:
Red Leader
By Red Leader
19th Jun 2015 12:52

Up North

Old Greying Accountant wrote:

... up t'north, in the Yorkshire/Derbyshire borderlands somewhere between Sheffield and Chesterfield they pronounce it [***]!

So you've met Peter Saxton then?

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By Tomazaan
19th Jun 2015 11:52

If they were that posh....

.. they would not have paid anything for the hace but would have inherited it.  The hace probably cost £100 around 500 years ago.  [Alan Clark is supposed to have insulted Michael Heseltine by saying that he was "the kind of person who buys his own furniture".]

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By User deleted
19th Jun 2015 14:48

I have indeed ...

... and I like Peter very much even if we do disagree vociferously at time.

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By josephc
19th Jun 2015 16:13

Big Four

I went to a state school and college and was offered and started a training contract straight afterwards with a big four firm instead of uni, this was back in 2012 so I'd assume not much has changed.

There were many privately schooled candidates in my assessment centre however out of the three of us that made it only one came from a privately schooled background.

I think the bias is towards the individual and not the background, it may just be that private schools produce a higher percentage of the required individuals.

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