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Agent authorisation problems ' again

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16th Jan 2006
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Rebecca Benneyworth considers a query posted on the 'Any Answers' section of the site last week that raised the dreadful spectre of 64-8s again.

Comments, and indeed the questioner, David Griffiths, indicated that processing times for forms 64-8 have lengthened again, in spite of the efforts made during the summer to regain ground from the significant backlog that had built up after the new Agent Authorisation team was set up. Present quoted data indicates a 14-day turnaround, which means that you are now officially too late to obtain authorisation to file an online return for a new client in time for the January 31st deadline. However, comments indicated that in the particular cases quoted, the processing time was significantly longer than this.

It is difficult to identify what the reason for the new delays might be. Surely, having reduced the backlog significantly over the summer (and there is no doubt that this did indeed happen) it would not be difficult to manage the day to day inflows of forms for processing, particularly as the new team has now been operational for more than six months. It may be that January has seen a rush of client authorisations as taxpayers address the thorny question of their return and decide that they need professional representation to complete it. Maybe HMRC were unprepared for the January rush? In any event, hoping to file online for a new client is now out of the question, so any new clients will have to be filed on paper.

HMRC have also now publicised the fact that the online client lists available through the SA Online site are problematical at present. It has been discovered that since Christmas, some clients appear as authorised on the Government Gateway lists, but not on the client list on HMRC's website. This can add to the frustration in trying to check whether a 64-8 has been processed. The number of the online services helpdesk is provided for those needing to check clients or repair data.

It may be possible to gain authorisation in respect of a client using the online process, which takes in excess of seven days. Once the application to authorise has been made ' which you can do once you log on as an agent to SA Online ' a PIN is posted to the client, which must then be brought to the agent for input, activating the agent authorisation. However, the PIN is time sensitive, and if not processed within its lifespan will become invalid, meaning that the process will have to be restarted from scratch. There is theoretically time to gain authorisation in this way in time for 31st January deadline.

Finally, as a warning on this topic, I relate a problem with authorisation that I encountered last week. I had acted for the particular client for many years, and found that I did not receive a copy of his year end statement in my bundle. When I checked my online list, his name did not appear. Unaware at that time that there had been problems with the client lists, I rang the electronic business helpdesk.

It transpires that my client is showing as registered to another firm. This is in spite of the fact that he has brought his books to me as usual. The helpdesk were unable to tell me who he was registered to ' quite rightly ' and suggested that I speak to my client. This I did, immediately. No, he has not authorised another advisor, nor signed any sort of authority. I was then referred to my local office (aka call centre).

The call centre was most helpful, and suggested that I retrieve my copy of the original 64-8 and fax it to my local office (number provided) with details of the problem. I queried how this problem could arise ' speculating that perhaps it was a processing error at CAAT, but the reply was that this was not likely to be the case as 64-8's are processed 'very carefully'. Oh that's OK then. So theoretically, this couldn't happen. That's reassuring.

Of course sod's law ' no copy in file. Has it been archived? Long (cold) search in cellar. No result. Phone call centre again. Can they offer me another option other than redo the entire authorisation process ' for which we are running short of time? Finally, a helpful lady tried to contact CAAT, who seemed to be permanently engaged. No, she was not allowed to give me their phone number. (Probably too busy processing 64-8's to answer the phone?). But later that day ' result ' she phoned me back to say if I fax a new 64-8 to a named individual at CAAT, he would deal with it immediately. No one can explain to me how this happened. So, fax sent, I now await my client's appearance on my client list (or of course not, as the case may be).

Oh dear. More work needed, I think!

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Replies (35)

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By User deleted
01st Feb 2006 13:06

OK FBI it is next year
We haven't had any ELS filing problems but I have had to accept that we will need to change this year and that we will have to deal with it positively.

At the Working Together meeting today, I suggested that prior years' returns which apparently will have to be lodged on paper be fast tracked and dealt with before current year's paper returns on the grounds that that will overcome the problem with those clients who are being chased by C of T over estimated liabilities or receiving threats about daily penalties. With ELS we could update earlier years easily.

On LBC today, I heard the new Revenue advert which has changed from the filing deadline to daily penalties :-( Does this mean they are going to use them more ?

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The Business Growth Secret
By anndartnall
01st Feb 2006 13:24

Not even my own revisted
Checked Gov Gateway on saturday against hmrc list. There were no differences. Called a nice lady on the online helpdesk. Explained my circumstances. "Oh yes, some 64-8's that have been processed have not been processed so that online filing can occur. If you give me the details I can check that they are asigned to you as agent and get the team to do a priority action to get them online. It will be done within 48hrs". True to her word they were. Filed my own on monday.

However, a couple of 64-8's had not been processed (one even in the same envelope), so a trip to the tax office was inevitable. I had printed and got signed a total of 13 returns, so in revenge for my wasted time and resources (not adequately documented for a bill), I took the lot down to the tax office and let them punch in the data by hand, rather than operate my nice expensive software. I appologise to any taxpayer who thinks that I have wasted their tax money, but I just had enough. Last year it took me 7 hours to file my own online because of Gateway problems.

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Rebecca Benneyworth profile image
By Rebecca Benneyworth
01st Feb 2006 10:49

I agree with Helen
I filed all returns except three by Online this year (having used ELS since it came in). The three I filed on paper were due to 64-8 problems!
Absolutely no hiccups at all.
More to the point, I have been manning the helpline for users of our software continuously for the last two weeks - this is ordinary taxpayers filing by Internet not using the HMRC free software (as they have foreign, CGT, share schemes etc). From about 20-30 calls per day not one single problem with HMRC's systems. In fact I was confident enough to sit on the line with very nervous users, and talk them through the filing process while I waited for a successful response. Absolutely no gripes here. BUT - for goodness sake sort out the agent authorisation problems! They risk bringing the whole thing into disrepute, which is a pity.

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By Helen Crowley
01st Feb 2006 09:34

For Bob and Tim - ELS v FBI
As promised I'm back to report on how it went. As previously stated, as a firm we ran both systems this year. I have to say that FBI worked incredibly well for us. (We lodged over 400 returns using it so it had a good workout from us) The only minor blip was last Wednesday 25th January when we had two returns we didn't get an instant acceptance notice for. However we did get them within an hour of lodging which is still a day earlier than we would have had using ELS so I can live with that. The system did not fall over once, even yesterday. Our biggest problem this year was actually with ELS. We had problems with a batch of more than 100 returns, another batch where one return caused a complete batch of 25 to fail and a 10% rejection rate yesterday. We wasted hours yesterday going through lists of ELS returns to make sure they had been accepted. I for one can't wait to use FBI for all of our returns next year!

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Rebecca Benneyworth profile image
By Rebecca Benneyworth
26th Jan 2006 17:57

You actually spoke to someone?
For two solid days now, the alleged "Customer service" number for Gloucestershire and North Wiltshire region has been permanently engaged from morning to night.

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By User deleted
24th Jan 2006 20:01

ELS v FBI
Hi Helen

Maybe I am living in the past, but we have been filing by ELS since SA started. Obviously a few problems in early years, but now minimal rejections and it does seem to work well. We use IRIS and haven't yet experimented with FBI although it is available. I hadn't realised that the SA site doesn't have to be available so perhaps I'm worrying unduly on that issue.

However, we find filing for earlier years is important and we have used it regularly for taxpayers who have failed to notify at the correct time. Filing electronically, the outstanding returns are processed immediately, as you will know. If you file manually, it can take months for the return to be processed and there seems to be no fast track procedure.

After Veltema, attaching the accounts and notes may be a waste of time but it still makes us feel good :-)

I would be interested to hear whether you have any filing problems between now and the end of the month as I have a Working Together meeting on 1st February and I have already raised the 64-8 problems and referred them to this thread

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By Helen Crowley
25th Jan 2006 10:58

Bob again
Hi again Bob. We too used ELS virtually from the beginning of SA and were more than happy with it after the initial teething problems. Some of our offices are still using it just because I haven't had time to roll out our internal procedures and instructions yet. So as a firm we are currently running both ELS and FBI before we all switch to FBI, the benefits of FBI over ELS have therefore been very easy for us to see first hand. (We use Pertax from MYOB)So far we have lodged 400 returns by FBI since October without even one problem, honestly. This time last year I too was extremely sceptical of FBI but I would encourage you to try it. If the system collapses before or on 31st Janaury though I will of course be one of the first to complain!
I have made a diary note to post here again on 1st February to let you (and others if they are interested) know whether or not my confidence in FBI was misplaced!

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By Helen Crowley
24th Jan 2006 10:57

Bob
Yes you have a point about earlier years. In practice though how many are you actually lodging for earlier years? Again the news on that front is that you will be able to lodge earlier years by FBI after April 2007 so the problem will only be around for one year.
There is of course a whole different debate on sending in documents. But the additional notes you can include with an FBI return are far more extensive than ELS plus they are immediately captured on HMRCs system not kept on separate print outs as they are with ELS, so what you lodge is exactly what an Inspector will see on his/her screen.
We use third party tax return software so we are having no problems lodging returns by FBI even though we often can't log on to the website to view statements of account. The third party software logs into the Government gateway in the background and takes just a few seconds to lodge a return and get acceptance. If you are using ELS you are probably also using third party software so if you were using FBI now, you too would not be experiencing any lodging problems. If you like I will come back on 1st February to tell you if we had any problems with FBI at all between now and 31st January.

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By nigelreese
26th Jan 2006 13:07

Its getting worse
I have now spent (wasted) 2 hours discovering that 10 clients who are on the Government Gateway are not on the Self Assessment pages.
I'm typing this whilst waiting for someone who knows what to do to pick up the phone.
Of these clients half are ones who have authorised again via the Online authorisation service only to dissappear again as soon as I have filed the return.
One officer has told me that the tax district has set a flag showing that I can not see statements on at least two of the clients but I have to speak to the individual tax offices about this and of course they have no record of any 64-8 so won't talk to me!
Has anyone any idea how to deal with this madness?

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By Helen Crowley
23rd Jan 2006 14:29

Tim you are out of date
Sorry Tim but you are out of touch/date in so far as HMRC are changing the requirement to have a 64-8 in place in order to be able to lodge by FBI from April 2006. So no need to extend ELS for another year for that reason alone.
(I'm an FBI convert/previous ELS user)
Another thing that no-one has brought up yet is if you have allocated clients to more than one "User" on the online service then any new clients added are not automatically allocated to anyone so have to be allocated individually on the Gateway otherwise they can't be seen.

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By User deleted
23rd Jan 2006 17:15

Out of Date
That's annoying. Will now have to try and find another reason why they should keep ELS. OK, so don't need 64-8, but what about filing for earlier years and attaching documents ??

By the way, ELS doesn't seem to be turning itself off every now and again whereas the SA website seems inaccessible from time to time

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By aidan.sergent
20th Jan 2006 16:58

Multiple agent references
Comment posted on 16th January reflects my experience too. It appears that HMRC probably using postcode software, and not checking agent address shown on 64-8. I use "Liverpool" as address not "Merseyside" but HMRC software obviously knows better and so I end up with a second client reference, only discovered when six monthly statements of account sent out.
Then had the farce of trying to access Agent Maintainer who could consolidate both references back into one. The HMRC computer does not indicate which District, and more importantly, which Office within the District is the Agent Maintainer. My local office should have been either Liverpool or W Lancs & W Cheshire, who we deal with in Widnes or Leigh. So logically our District Agent Maintainer is based in....... you guessed it, Crewe!

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By DonQuixote
22nd Jan 2006 09:37

ELS & 64-8
Yet more reason to continue the Electronic Lodgement Service. Under that condemned system, Returns can be filed and acceptances are promptly received with or without a 64-8.

Dear Mr Revenue, Any chance of a stay of execution for the same reason as the new sub-contractor scheme was put back a year?

If it ain't broke........

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PJ
By paulgrca.net
19th Jan 2006 16:47

Billing
2 hours charged at my standard hourly rate.

Obviously all time needs to be properly recorded detailing time spent on phone calls to client/revenue correspondance etc.

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Dennis Howlett
By dahowlett
19th Jan 2006 20:04

A way to confirm time spent
Hey Paul - got a template you can share to support billing HMRC?

How about recording call time wasted by using Skype and podcast technology? Time stamped so you can bill by the second if you want.

Send the invoice by email along with the MP3 file. Job done.

So I thought about this and came up with a number for the possible cost to taxpayers - £18 mill in wasted time. Anyone want to argue that?

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By cwca
19th Jan 2006 16:17

Online agent's information
Not directly on this thread but related to it. A client received a refund for 2005 in full on 9th December for the correct amount of tax overpaid.

For another reason on Monday I checked on line her current balance which should of course be nil to discover a balance showing of £52. Checked hard copy statement - £nil. Checked with Revenue inspector - current days' position £Nil. Checked online again £52. Investigated and found to be interest running to date on apparent outstanding 2004 tax due 31 Jan 2005, paid 28 Feb 2005. Correct interest £3.04 charged and paid. Balance clear.

Contacted on line help desk. "Cannot investigate, cannot enquire, do not have access to client account, contact local inspector". Stated three times already done that. "Cannot do anything here as we only act on instructions from inspector".

At the end of 15 mins argy bargy, asked to speak to a "team leader". 5 minutes pause. She comes back "Managed to access account on another terminal; account was updated yesterday and amendments take 72 hours to appear"

Accessed and corrected on a Sunday and the computer would issue a full refund with an amount of interest to collect? I don't think so! Flying pig warming up.

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By User deleted
19th Jan 2006 10:53

64-8 saga
This is turning into another tax creditd nightmare...
I have a client who is a director of a private company. We went a 64-8 in April 2005 to HMRC. We knowthey received it because they sent us a CWF1 booklet to complete for him !!!
We called them (Bristol & North Somerset Area - Bath office) to point out to them that the client was not self-employed but a director and they said ok no problem, will issue UTR. Since then no news. We tried calling help line /call centres/ agents direct lines to call centre. Absolutely useless.. 1o days after last phone call to call centre where a sympathetic person transmitted our increasing frustration to Bristol office we received a call. Sorry can't find 64-8, they have lost it. Can we send another? In the meantime they would send notice of UTR to client!! They would not tell me if they had issue a tr 05 notice of completion.

If the client is late I shall appeal against any late filing penalty. I am also fed up of the increasing incompetence of the revenue staff. The problem is they are getting rid of people who know how to do the job and replacing them by "monkeys" who have not got a clue, are not trained, and think because they work for the goverment they can be arrogant to the point of rudeness, and waste tax payers money wihtout having to account to anyone about it..

There is no longer any common sense, it is becoming a bureaucratic nightmare.. It reminds of the Hitchhikers guide to the galaxi and their planning department...

Anyway there 140 tax returns left to do and only 3 of us doing them. Wish us luck...
M

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PJ
By paulgrca.net
19th Jan 2006 10:59

Bill the revenue
CAAT incorrectly processed 64-8 resulting in another agent being logged as acting for my client. After much time and effort position rectified. I issued a bill to revenue for my time costs in dealing with this matter which was duly paid in full.

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By baseline
19th Jan 2006 12:26

Data Quality
One must not underestimate the difficulty and scale of what is being achieved by HMRC given the size of the project. There is more success than failure for sure, but data quality is an issue.

One can only speculate as to what is going on the behind the scenes at HMRC. In the USA high-level IRS meetings are published online because the citizen has legal rights to the information. To my knowledge this is not the case here and taxpayers have no such legal rights. This is unfortunate because external auditing cannot heap praise, help or sound alarm bells. Perhaps its prudent to always write to HMRC stating concerns, don’t rely on an invisible phone call. Its ones only legal defence.

Anybody who has experience of corporate computer systems must be aware that change cannot happen quickly. Bottlenecks are inevitable. If these difficulties were commercial, where would the directors find the extra money to remedy such problems? HMRC will do it by working harder to recover taxes.

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By JSJ54
19th Jan 2006 13:45

Billing the Revenue
I agree with you Iain and well done Paul for managing to be paid. Would you mind telling us how much you charged?

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By arthvirg230
18th Jan 2006 16:38

Is it worth billing the Revenue for our wasted time??
I've had about a dozen instance in the last week where the Revenue have been incompetent with 64-8's - Does anyone else think it's about time we started billing them for our time? Has anyone else tried this yet? It seems to be a recognised and nationwide problem .. And we're the ones having to sort it out for the Revenue as they obviuosly don't have a clue!!!

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The Business Growth Secret
By anndartnall
20th Jan 2006 11:27

Not even my own!!!
Now that I own my own Ltd company, I want to have that company as my agent. Sounds simple? Having submitted 3 separate 64-8's several months apart last year, I am still not on the online list of my clients.....hmmmm.
I have also been sending in other 64-8's but none of them seem to appear either.
Good old paper and a list of SATRs on 31 Jan seems my only option for half of my clients and me. I think I must just take a letter of complaint with me as well explaining why so many SATRs are being punched by hand.

Could we sue Adam Hart for misleading statements - "Tax doesn't have to be taxing, do it online". He surely must be rich enough from the fees.

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By andy.tpp
16th Jan 2006 13:14

64-8's - CAAT Complaints Hotline
Like many other practitioners, we have also experienced "extreme frustration" when 64-8's are not registered.
Our latest situation involves a client for whom we first submitted a 64-8 in 1988! Copies have been requested (& submitted on numerous occasions), but now CAAT appear to have lost it.
When I spoke to a very helpful & understading lady at the local HMRC office, she gave me a number she described as the CAAT Complaints Hotlline: 0191 225 4790. I have tried to call on several occasions, but it has always been engaged! I have submitted a written complaint, but at the moment am no further ahead. However, it is reassuring to note that we are not alone in this situation. Is the answer really OUT THERE?

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By acmakey
16th Jan 2006 13:47

Interesting one
I took on a client with his own company about a year ago. Got 64-8's signed for both him and his company and sent them in. Company appeared on my client's list no problem, but only noticed he didn't before Xmas. Contacted Helpdesk to be told that I now had a second agent's ID (somedbody in HMRC gave me a new one for some reason!!), and that this client was on that. I asked what was my other agent's ID, but they were not allowed to tell me!! Instead told me to contact the Agent Maintainer for my area, and they would merge the 2 agent's ID's. I have made at least 6 calls to the Agent Maintainer with no success! Eventually gave in, and used the online PIN system to get the client onto my proper ID - worked no problem.

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By User deleted
16th Jan 2006 14:07

64-8 online ONLY
I recently got online authorisation for a new client - no problems with this, all went smoothly.

However, I then rang the tax office (for a copy of last year's return)only to be told I don't have authority. I explained about having processed it online and was told that the online 64-8 was for online submissions/viewing only. If I want to speak to someone at the tax office I still need to submit a paper 64-8.

Has anyone else had this problem?????

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By cjenner
16th Jan 2006 14:09

Agent authorisations
I think Rebecca may have stumbled across the reason why quite so many of our clients no longer appear as such online. I have been increasingly exasperated over the length of time CAAT take to process manual 64-8s sent to them, and I am discovering this year just how much of a problem has built up as I try to file tax returns online only to be rejected! The online authorisation process has been the easiest way to rectify this problem for clients with a UTR, but for new clients without UTRs paper forms are the only option. We also found almost none of our partnership clients appeared online and have been sending copy 64-8s on these for several months.

We have had problems in the past with clients getting registered to firms in the area with similar names (Basically any firm beginning with a K!) so about three years ago I had stamps made of our agent reference number and we stamp every 64-8 with this, but still 'impossible' errors happen.


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By User deleted
16th Jan 2006 15:06

Inconsistent tax offices again
Unlike Mr Beeston-Clarke, I have found that the client's local tax office will speak to me when I have merely used the online agent authorisation & not submitted a 64-8. Like most people though, this client started off on my list on the main HMRC website & 2 days later vanished - he is still on the gateway website though.
In the past I have had regular problems with Lothians tax office losing 64-8s for clients - sometimes after a year or so when correspondence has passed between us. Other tax offices seemed better. However I've got a recent problem with a client being sent both her copy of an enquiry letter and the agent copy - the agent copy was addressed to the client (!?), but the client copy said that the agent copy was being sent to the previous agent - I took over in early 2005 & the client is showing on my list on the HMRC website.

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By AnonymousUser
16th Jan 2006 12:34

Me too
Clients (Husband & Wife) registered to a.n.other -
my long-standing, reliable clients assure me they have not done anything that may have affected my authority.

So hey ho I sent off new 64-8s December still not authorised.....

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By User deleted
16th Jan 2006 12:51

64-8 processing time
18 days, that's lucky. I had several clients who took 6 weeks. And even after chasing the CAAT I was told that it had been processed and was on their system I still could not see our client on HMRC list. Useless.

We can't even access individual client by their names or UTR no we have to go though the whole list option.

I have no time for all this rigmarole.

At least, touch wood, fingers crossed (and every thing else) the FBI seems to be working reasonably well. With another 200 returns to file by the end of the month, that is reassuring.
Lets hope I have not spoken too soon...


M

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By angusnicolson
16th Jan 2006 12:52

Online authorisation
The online authorisation system is down - again!

My Gateway list shows 279 clients. The Online list shows 265 or so, but every time some are added, more disappear. This week, three were added and two were removed, and I am fed-up cross-checking the lists.

Best yet -- a client got authorised on-line and we duly submitted his Return in December. He now doesn't appear on the list and the helpdesk told me to send a copy of the 64-8 as they had no record of ever receiving one.

What is going on?!?

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By nigelreese
16th Jan 2006 12:52

Very slow to authorise online
Last weekend (9/10th Jan) I checked and found that 15 clients did not appear on my online listing. I carefully added their details and the system told me that pins had been sent to my clients.
The first two dated 9th January turned up with clients today 16th Janauary. I've logged them in but the clients are still not shown as active. I suppose I have to wait until tomorrow. All have 64-8s in place.
Its very frustrating and there's no one to shout at!

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By simagnus
16th Jan 2006 12:45

Missing 64/8's
In March 2005 all of Bournemouth tax districts files were transferred to Bristol & N Somerset office.

All the outstanding correspondence was transferred (I was assured).

Not one 64/8 was processed between January 2005 and May 2005. After March we sent them to Bristol but we have at least 30 gaps in the system.

It is very embarrassing to advise clients that the IR have "lost" the authority form - especially at this point in the tax year as often we have no UTR in spite of a request for one to be issued when the 64/8 was filed.

I believe that Bristol "dumped" these forms as not one was processed.

Stuart Magnus
Newton Magnus Broadstone
[email protected]

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By AnonymousUser
18th Jan 2006 08:27

Real life:
Telephone call with local HMRC office after having no joy with e-filer helpdesk.

Me: "Blah blah Client ref no online access blah blah"
HMRC: "64-8 confirmed, no explanation, I will talk to e-filer help desk."

Half an hour later, telephone call from local HMRC office:

HMRC (very apologetic): "So sorry, spoke to e-filer help desk, but they would not talk to me as I am not the taxpayer nor authorised agent".

Duh???

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Rebecca Benneyworth profile image
By Rebecca Benneyworth
24th Jan 2006 11:29

Update on my missing client
Still no progress - have faxed twice and tried to chase by phone.
About to give up and do it on paper - but he's waiting on a £1,000 tax refund so Online would be better.
I'll raise a bill to HMRC.

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By JSJ54
16th Jan 2006 12:36

It's official - turnaround time 18 days
Last week's Taxation referred to a Written Answer by Dawn Primarolo. Follow the link for the full text.

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