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AccountingWEB Member Update Number 4

27th May 2016
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AccountingWEB's UK publisher Ben Smith outlines the now, next, soon in the new site's development. And takes a longer look at plans to improve the commenting process and experience. 

Before we get to the usual now/next/soon update below, I wanted to set out our plans for commenting/posting.

It’s a big project that will take us a while to work through. We’ll start with some incremental changes to improve useability in the coming weeks and months - much of which is explained in the ‘next’ section below. But a look at all the different, smaller fixes might give a more complete picture of how we're tackling the wider project:

  • Edit link within comments/posts - so you don’t have to navigate back to your account page.
  • Including avatars alongside comments/replies
  • Better distinction between responses and replies - We won’t go back to purely chronological threads, but we do want to make it clearer when a comment is response to a specific comment to make the longer debate easier to follow.
  • ‘Like’ iconography - we are looking at different alternatives to the ‘heart’ and will consult members on which one to use once we have a shortlist.
  • Where and how to post - including links at the end of a comment thread that return you instantly to the commenting box. This will be linked to how we manage some issues around infinite scroll. 
  • The default size of the comment box. It is adjustable now, but it makes sense for it to be bigger and more obvious
  • Notification emails - everything from subject lines, to links that direct you to the exact point of comment within the thread, and digest options for your interactions.
  • The ability to follow threads, users, blogs and other content formats - You can't currently follow/subscribe to a blog, but we know that many of you want that capability. 

I hope this package demonstrates how we’re responding to your feedback on the site. I’ve said it before, but we are reading it, and it does influence the decisions we make. We’ll be inviting users to test many of these changes, so if you’d like to participate, please drop me a private message (and thanks to those of you who already have).

Within the next couple of updates I’ll share with you our wider plans to adjust the site’s design. Again, this isn’t a short-term project, but we’ll communicate our intentions openly. When we’re ready to embark on that phase, I’ll provide an update about the issues as we see them, and the steps we’ll be taking to address them. 

Done, now, next, soon

Our development team work in two week “sprints”, so a lot of the activity has been geared around releases due to come out next week. It may not look like much has changed since last Friday, but the groundwork has been laid for some pretty big changes in the weeks ahead.

That said, the major thing we have implemented is advanced search. We’ve released this now and we think it’s a really good addition to the site. We’re not finished with this project quite yet; we’re planning to add an option to sort by date as well as the relevance rating currently used.

There have been some quite substantial performance uplifts too, but they will be less obvious to those of you using the site day-to-day.

So what are we doing now?

These are things we’re hoping to release by the end of next week (3 June) - this should start to seem a little familiar now, as we progress through our project list.

  • Comment titles - we’re not reintroducing these, but we are migrating the comment titles posts made pre-migration into the comment body on the new platform. We’re mid-way through testing this (at time of writing) and expect to release this on Tuesday next week
  • Date formats - reverting back to the UK format (day, month, year) - also in testing at the moment with a planned release for next week.
  • Thanks - We’re making sure that the thanks picked up by posts and comments on the old site are still associated with the item on the new site. We’re also looking at how to display thanks you’ve earned within your own account.

We hope to have all of these things rolled out next week (ending 3 June). 

What are we doing next?

  • Investigation into like iconography - changing the heart icon
  • Investigation into avatars on comments
  • Investigating the ability to edit comments without leaving the original page
  • Investigation underway to improve email notification subject lines (this isn't the only project related to notification emails, but it is the one we can build within the next two weeks or so).

We’ll know by the time of next week’s update when we think we can release all of these improvements. At the time of writing this, we think we’ll be doing much of this in the fortnight ending 17 June.

What are we planning for soon?

  • When you get an email to notify you of a reply to a thread, the link will take you directly to the comment concerned (as opposed to the top of the initial thread).
  • Ability to link to a comment on a page
  • Investigation into how to improve commenting experience/ process
  • Investigating how best to display thanks on user profiles.

This isn’t the full list of everything we’re working on. Instead it focuses on areas where you’ll see changes soonest. As always, you can contact me via PM with any specific feedback or questions you’d like to ask.

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Replies (22)

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avatar
By Duhamel
27th May 2016 16:09

I just have one question - why wasn't this testing done before? I have never seen another site go up in this manner.

Thanks (2)
Replying to Duhamel:
Ben sitting at a We Work Anywhere office
By Ben Smith
27th May 2016 16:39

Hi Duhamel,

It's a fair question. The short answer is that it's a pretty common approach. You build the MVP (minimum viable product) and then you release lots of adjustments guided by user feedback.

Even so, we did do a lot of user testing, both across the development of the whole platform (which we've been working on for over 18m) and with about 18 real AccountingWEB users.

They gave us a lot of feedback that we used to build the site to it's initial release. We always knew, and tried to communicate, that the first iteration of the new site would be exactly that - an iteration.

Even with testing, we were never going to find all of the answers we would need. Now that we have the feedback coming, we're changing both small and larger things to get the site working as you want it to.

The Guardian did something pretty similar, albeit on a different scale:

http://www.theguardian.com/help/insideguardian/2015/jan/28/welcome-to-th...

Thanks (0)
Replying to Duhamel:
Time for change
By Time for change
27th May 2016 16:40

Duhamel wrote:

I just have one question - why wasn't this testing done before? I have never seen another site go up in this manner.


Very fair comment, from what I can see?
Thanks (0)
Time for change
By Time for change
27th May 2016 16:45

Sorry to appear facetious Ben but, reading between the lines, while Aweb is "iterating", the members on here are simply (very frustrated) guinea pigs?

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Replying to Time for change:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
27th May 2016 17:25

Time for change wrote:

Sorry to appear facetious Ben but, reading between the lines, while Aweb is "iterating", the members on here are simply (very frustrated) guinea pigs?

C'mon, be fair, Microsoft do it all the time with their operating systems and also charge you for the privilege.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Time for change:
Ben sitting at a We Work Anywhere office
By Ben Smith
27th May 2016 17:33

Time for change wrote:

Sorry to appear facetious Ben but, reading between the lines, while Aweb is "iterating", the members on here are simply (very frustrated) guinea pigs?

I guess that's fair to an extent. We ARE using your feedback to build the site in the right way. I know you're frustrated with both the current state of the site, and the pace of change.

We never think of you as guinea pigs in that sense though. It's not a negative thing to deeply involve you in the development process.

The conventional development method would have been to lock our dev team in a room for 2 years, using focus groups and market research to support decision making. Even the most robust research process is often flawed, and had we taken that approach we may well have ended up with both a site that wasn't right, and no ability or budget to change it.

What we can do now is put your feedback at the heart of how we 'iterate'. It means we can build a site that we know you want to use. It'll take some time, but the more feedback we get, the more we can do.

There's a reasonable overview of MVP and 'agile' here:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-minimum-viable-product

But these are the key sections:

"Building a Minimum Viable Product (MVP) is a strategy for avoiding the development of products that customers do not want. The idea is to rapidly build a minimum set of features that is enough to deploy the product and test key assumptions about customers’ interactions with the product. "

and

"It differs from the conventional strategy of investing time and money to implement whole product before verifying whether customers want the product or not. MVP tests the actual usage scenario in contrast to conventional market research that relies on surveys or focus groups, which often provide misleading results."

Thanks (0)
Replying to bensmithsift:
Anyone Without A Sense Of Humour Is At The Mercy Of Everyone Else
By WellHeeled
28th May 2016 00:05

I don't understand all the "building it how you want" stuff. It was how people wanted, it worked. Now it is a not very viable product, because it is user unfriendly.
The forward moving road map seems to involve people not coming here and engaging as much.
I got over the sadness now.
I come in, click about, cant find things, its all too orange and it makes me think of easy jet.
The threads cant be read, it jumps, its all too sticky and clunky.

If someone was minded to they could make a website that worked, and invite the previous contributors to it and just get going again. It would take a while to get off the ground, but if it worked, it would take off.

Not for big bucks or to be a business, but in the spirit of filling a gap that AWeb just created with this new direction they have gone in.
There is a need for what AWeb used to host, and now it doesn't host it, invariably that need will spring up somewhere else where it is hostable.

MySpace didn't listen...
Look what happened to them.
Websites can die out very fast.

Thanks (1)
Stepurhan
By stepurhan
27th May 2016 17:22

OK. Just wrote a long post about how ridiculous these claims are, and it has been blocked without any explanation. I'm done with this!

Thanks (4)
By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
27th May 2016 17:40

Ben its good for you to finally admit you have made a cowboy job on the site and are treating your users with contempt by putting in a draft site and then developing it "from feedback".

The fact that this approach may be "common" does not excuse the deeply unprofessional nature of this, making your users go through the pain barrier of dealing with a half arsed site without proper thought or testing is quite insulting.

Do remember your audience. We are professionals in our own right, and I don't know the average age but I am mid 40's and one of the younger members.

Thanks (3)
Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
27th May 2016 17:46

I should add as you posted at the same time as me (but I cant of course edit my post. DOH. , I don't buy for a minute you would have needed a bunch of focus groups and a 2 year development plan to do the basic stuff right , that ought to have been immediately apparent to you the basic tedious flaws, such as it being too bloody big on a desktop and the ability to edit a post.

That is just lazy implementation which ought to have been dealt with at the design phase. Assuming there was one.

Thanks (3)
FT
By FirstTab
27th May 2016 18:36

Hello Ben

Once again, I am disappointed with Sift's message. You (Sift) is NOT listening. What Sift is doing is tinkering around the edges on a poorly thought out site both in design and use.

Sift knows what the users want. A workable and a site that attracts other accountants. State of things as they stand, the great and the good contributors have jumped ship.

Please do not say we are listening when all the evidence points to that you (Sift) are not. If you were, you would either go back to the old site or get rid of those ugly tiles for a start. Who the hell approved the tile layout? At least provide use some detailed information about user feedback before the mighty Sift went for the Titanic option.

What would it take for Sift to LISTEN?

Thanks (2)
Replying to FirstTab:
Routemaster image
By tom123
27th May 2016 21:02

But, FT, I think in fact that Sift are making improvements. As in any project, you have to start from where you are. Over the last week, I have felt the site getting a bit more of it's community feel back - I am still optimistic - and we are getting updated etc.

Thanks (2)
Replying to tom123:
FT
By FirstTab
27th May 2016 21:36

Tom, the problem are those damn tiles. They make the site look ugly and detract from the usefulness of the site.

My reading of it is that the tiles are staying. So Sift is starting at the wrong place. It needs to get rid of the tiles. Then I would be as optimistic as you are.

After this total debacle and Sift refusal to budge over those damn tiles(!) my loyalty to Sift no longer extends as far as yours.

Why did Sift not create a Beta site and invite its membership for feedback ? Also, there was so much negative feedback about the American site. All ignored and Sift listens! Come on Ben!

Thanks (2)
FT
By FirstTab
27th May 2016 23:39

I had a look at the Guardian and the Telegraph sites, sadly, I can see where Sift is heading. Terrible news for me, they look similar to this site after their improvements. What is it about tiles?

I will not waste my breath commenting on updates. No significant change will take place. Tiles are staying, that seems to be in thing.

Thanks (1)
Out of my mind
By runningmate
28th May 2016 10:30

OK, some thoughts.
Firstly, credit where it's due! Thanks Ben for explaining the approach that AWEB / Sift have taken to developing the new site via MVP (minimum viable product). If only politicians were as honest as Ben has been!
I can understand FirstTab's position - he hates tiles. But I think it is clear that whilst the tiles may change in size / colour / etc the basic idea of using tiles will remain for the forseeable future.
The underlying issue I suppose is whether the tiles make it easier or harder to find stuff you want on the site.
I still see people saying that they can't edit their posts. They can - but the menu to do that is now in a different place (it's via 'My account'). That's a bit like what Microsoft do from time to time with Excel menus. Basically you just have to find your way around the new menus.
It's a pity IMHO that in order to use bold, italic, underline etc or insert hyperlinks with useful names you now need to know & insert HTML code (in angled brackets) into your post - like {strong}{em}THIS{/em}{/strong} or {a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk" target="_blank"}link to BBC website home page{/a} - I have used curly brackets to make them visible in this example.
The big bugbear for me though is the 'infinite scrolling' & the way that only a handful of comments are initially visible. So if you scroll down you actually lose the thread completely! That's just awful IMHO. I have a bad feeling though that, like the tiles, we are stuck with this. Oh dear!
On the other hand the advanced search looks like it will be an improvement on the old AWEB site (in which search was useless - one just googled instead). And does anyone remember when comments were limited to something like 2,000 characters?? So let's not get too carried away with the good old days!
The planned changes all look to be actual improvements rather than just messing things about for the sake of it - can I put in a plea for ticks instead of hearts?
So for now I am hanging on in there . . .
RM

Thanks (0)
Replying to runningmate:
Anyone Without A Sense Of Humour Is At The Mercy Of Everyone Else
By WellHeeled
28th May 2016 11:23

Would you like the walkthrough for editing posts?
Previously it was
1. Click edit
2. change words.
3. Click "post reply".

Now it is,
1. Scroll up to top of screen and click your namep\
2. On that screen scroll down and select Answer to Qs, from the left.
3. Locate post and click to edit.
4. Then drag the reply box to a bigger size.
5. Change words
6. Click "post reply"
7. It takes you to top of thread reply is in.
8. Scroll down to replies and it will bounce you down to next thread.
9. Scroll back up
10. click to see more comments
11. scroll down to post you just edited.

There is so much more clicking and scrolling and fiddling around all over, in every aspect of the site.

Thanks (3)
Replying to WellHeeled:
Anyone Without A Sense Of Humour Is At The Mercy Of Everyone Else
By WellHeeled
28th May 2016 11:26

I wont be going through the 11 step rigmorale of editing out the p/ that is planted in my post.
Didn't notice that when writing, but hey, nothing looks as good as it did on AWeb these days, so no matter.

Thanks (2)
Replying to WellHeeled:
Chris M
By mr. mischief
31st May 2016 05:54

Here's my alternative plan Ben if Sift want more traffic for less cost:

1. Junk the drivelly new site.
2. Go back to the old one.
3. Ask regular users for suggestions for improvements.
4. Implement the best ones.

Result = more users at less cost, how hard can it be?

Thanks (4)
Replying to mr. mischief:
By petersaxton
01st Jun 2016 18:33

Sift will not admit to the users that they have messed up because it will be seen has a criticism of their bosses. They'll keep blundering their way through until the site folds completely. There's nothing like a bunch of people scared for their jobs to deny reality.

Thanks (1)
Replying to WellHeeled:
By petersaxton
01st Jun 2016 18:30

Do you think that is what Sift want people to do? They can say that there's a lot more page views. Pity about the users leaving in droves or at least coming to the site a lot less.
I used to come to the site about 5 or 10 time a day but now it maybe once a week. I don't post many questions or look at many of the questions because it's just so much hassle.

Thanks (1)
avatar
By justsotax
31st May 2016 13:32

Update Number 4 - says it all....answer the questions you want to and answers the ones you don't with a response to a question you haven't been asked.

After 4 updates any answers now at least looks like a long lost distant relation of the old version (as compared to a nobody in the first version).

I trust the 'numbers' reflect the absolute [***] that has been made of this site change. But lets hope you hit your target audience....which presumably are the ones who add comments to MSN stories and BBC headlines....

Thanks (1)
FT
By FirstTab
01st Jun 2016 20:43

Wait till the next update. Ben's response "approved" by Sift's hierarchy.

Once again, Ben will respond to questions that drives Sift's message - we ain't changing! "Please keep the feedback coming we do listen but are very selective who we listen to! "

Thanks (1)