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Was I Stupid?

21st Jun 2014
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I'm a recently qualified ACA accountant who was promised a bumper pay rise upon passing my final exams. However, upon qualifying, don't you just know it, my employer (a well known firm I may add) informs me that my bumper pay rise is instead not so bumper at all (and in fact quite derogatory). Their promise was only verbal and came about after a discussion I had with one of the firm's partners after a previous promised pay rise, that also failed to materialise, was disputed.

I am disputing the unethical behaviour of my firm but my employer has just said (literally) "...tuff....you should've got something in writing". The question posed in the title of this blog is a little rhetorical as I know I was stupid but can they just get away with this? Or is there anything I can do?

To top it off, I was recently offered a job somewhere else but my employer effectively blocked the move as I am not within 12 months of qualifying and therefore I am required to pay my training costs back even though these costs is how my employer used to justify my £14k per annum salary. Therefore, I effectively paid for my own training costs and I actually had to pay for my travel and accommodation costs which is usually met by the training provider.

Without sounding pedantic, I would imagine that my employer is in breach of the Institute's code of ethics (integrity, honesty, professional behaviour...take your pick!)...should I speak to them about this?

Has anyone had any experience of this before? Any advice would be massively appreciated!

 

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Replies (27)

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By ShirleyM
21st Jun 2014 16:01

I must be dead thick

I cannot see why you have created a blog about CGT Annual Exemption to ask a question, and then posted a rant (a well justified rant by the sounds of it) about your employer.

Then again .... do you usually just do things your own way, instead of observing and following normal practice?

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By User deleted
21st Jun 2014 16:26

It must be catching Shirley

It's obviously catching Shirley because I'm flummoxed too.

But given that the OP has nothing in writing I'd be gobsmacked if the Institute even showed a flicker of interest. Some employers can be b*stards, some can be great. Ditto suppliers, plumbers, accountants, etc. If something matters to you then make sure you've covered your back and can prove it. Otherwise it's he said, she said. And it's the same the world over. Given that they didn't stick to their original promise of a rise I'm surprised you didn't learn from that and get the bonus put in writing,

And as for paying back training costs well that's pretty standard as otherwise newly qualifieds would all go skipping off to promises of better salaries.

Accept the new job, suck up the repayment and move on. You'll not get better treatment from your existing employer so you're wasting your time staying.

 

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By D.Dodds
21st Jun 2014 16:54

I obviously was meant to post 2 separate blogs if I haven't done so? As a first time user of the website I apologise if I have caused any distress to ShirleyM. I hope this experience has not spoiled your day. I expected that Flash Gordon, I simply cannot accept the job as I cannot afford to repay £10k including having to work my notice period for free...with a house and child that is just unfeasible. I know I should of got something in writing, I've been nothing but a good, hard-working, etc employee who passed all exams at the first attempt (including 1 award) & after all that, I didn't think my employer would do that...hands up, I was naive at best! I'm not the only one at the firm that this has happened to and they have talked about getting legal advice from the institute, apparently it's free? That's why I was asking about the institute.

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By D.Dodds
21st Jun 2014 17:03

Patronising
Basil, is there really any need to be so patronising? Seriously?

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By ShirleyM
21st Jun 2014 17:09

Another blog?

You obviously missed the point I was trying to make. Never mind.

Thank you, but I wasn't distressed. I was trying to help but perhaps not clearly enough. Questions go in Any Answers. You have maybe noticed Any Answers as you have provided help to some posters there. Blogs are for regular (or maybe not so regular) advertisements (mostly) and many bloggers relate personal experiences that will help other members (very popular), and we even get discussion of topics that are currently in the news (or should be). Blogs is definitely not the place for your posts, and you would get a much better response if you posted in the correct section, ie. Any Answers.

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By D.Dodds
21st Jun 2014 17:24

Well, thank you (genuinely) for clearing that up, but I would have appreciated that advice in the first place rather than the grilling I did get!

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By User deleted
22nd Jun 2014 07:46

Ask the Institute

Well the best way to find out if the Institute can help is to ask them. But if you [***] off your employer when you can't actually leave first then you're in for a bumpy ride - particularly as I doubt you'd have a chance of winning without proof. Sounds like you'll have to suck up the job and wait till you've exceeded the minumum post-qual stage so you don't have to repay your training. It may not be ideal but life isn't sometimes. If it was I'd be winning a million on the premium bonds each month. As I haven't I have to plod on too. 

I may not sound remotely sympathetic but then I can see it from an employer's point of view in terms of employees leaving straight after qualifying - why would they not make sure that they didn't fork out to get you qualified and then lose the benefit? Having a clawback is standard and sensible. And you were screwed the first time (that sucks) but then you didn't learn from that! Hopefully you'll have learnt now? 

Be grateful you have a job, got paid to train and received a pay rise, even if not to your expectations. There are plenty of folk who'd jump at that. Learn from your mistakes, work hard so you get a decent reference, and move on when the circumstances permit.

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By D.Dodds
22nd Jun 2014 08:20

Yes, lesson definitely learned by me and the other trainee ACA/ACCA students but I can't be grateful for being underpaid whilst training & effectively paying my own training costs then being asked to repay these costs after I have expressed that I want to leave after promises were broken & the payrise falling £8k short. I hate admitting defeat but as nothing was in writing I guess that's it.

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Replying to Tim Vane:
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By User deleted
22nd Jun 2014 09:33

It's all about the attitude

D.Dodds wrote:
Yes, lesson definitely learned by me and the other trainee ACA/ACCA students but I can't be grateful for being underpaid whilst training & effectively paying my own training costs then being asked to repay these costs after I have expressed that I want to leave after promises were broken & the payrise falling £8k short. I hate admitting defeat but as nothing was in writing I guess that's it.

Were you forced into taking the job in the first place? I doubt it. You chose the job, knowing the initial salary involved. Ergo you must have been satisfied with it. You weren't effectively paying your training costs, they've paid them. All you've had to pay is the cost of getting there. When I was studying I got a pittance of a salary and had to pay training on top of that. But I was happy that they were giving me some study leave and the encouragement to do the exams. You want to leave because you want a big salary and you're surprised that they're not happy about paying the training costs and not seeing the benefit? Has it ever occurred to you that you might not have got the payrise because the business couldn't afford it? Or maybe you're just not up to it and they'd rather give it to someone who deserves it? 

You obviously haven't learnt any lessons. And to be brutally frank you come across as greedy and self-absorbed, and not remotely interested in anyone but yourself. Maybe you should consider a career in banking or politics as I think you'd fit in well.

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By ShirleyM
22nd Jun 2014 08:39

Maybe your approach was confrontational?

It may not have been, but looking at your attitude on here it may be a possibility.

You jumped in with a blog without checking out the forum first and considering the correct place to post your question. I doubt you display that approach at work else they would probably be happy for you to leave.

However, it sounds like you threatened to leave your employment when you didn't get the expected pay rise instead of asking their reasons for not following through with the promised pay rise. It could be that your employers are annoyed at your threats and if they are as mean and petty as they sound, then all hope of promotion has gone.

Personally, I would cut my losses and move on. I think you have burned your boats with your current employer.

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By mrme89
22nd Jun 2014 10:19

I think you've taken an agrressive stance with you current employer.

You should have requested a meeting to discuses the issue. You could have used the opportunity to discuss why you hadn't received received the promised payrise, and asked if there is was anything on your part you could do to achieve it.

We all want a bigger salary, but sometimes you have to show some tact.

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By D.Dodds
22nd Jun 2014 20:50

My old boss used to say...'assumptions are the mother of all f##k ups' and there's alot of incorrect assumptions on here. I did effectively pay my training costs as my salary was reduced to compensate for them which I was fine about. I also paid my accomm and travel costs even though my training contract states travel costs are met by my employer. I did ask for a meeting where they said it wasn't in writing so, basically, tuff. The others were told the same.

I had expectations because of what was promised by my employer, as was the case with the other trainees. I'm not going to blow my own trumpet but I can assure you I am up to the job, my team has been the most profitable for the last 5 years. If the business couldn't afford it then they shouldn't of promised it! They've done it because they know we're stuck there for 12 months, but saying that 1 has left after this and said if you want my training costs back then take me to court.

Self-obsessed? Would you not be upset if you were told your salary will be £8k lower than promised? As it doesn't only affect me but my little girl too it's especially upsetting. You might say "awe, boo-hoo" & that's fine but after years of struggling we thought we'd finally be better off & be able to spend more in childcare which would help her development I'm told. I have learnt a lesson (the hard way) I would suggest that you don't judge someone so quickly and perhaps learn some manners.

ShirleyM, I apologised for posting in the incorrect place and I apologise again. Again I don't think making this error reflects my role and responsibilities at work. Accountants are pretty good I know but we all have our off days.

Another incorrect assumption is that I threatened to leave. The other employer contacted me & I went for a meeting with them. They thought by salary was '...disgusting' and offered me a job the same day. I asked my current employer if I could leave but they said only if I work my notice period for free then repay my training costs.

As far as burning my bridges with my current employer, I don't care. They've broken trust & as soon as I can I would like to move. It's strange, I don't know why they would do this to all their recently qualified staff. It maybe explains the fact that since I joined the firm I reckon 14 people have qualified in my office & not 1 has stayed at the firm & I doubt if any of us will be staying too. Suggestions on a postcard....

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Replying to FirstTab:
By mrme89
22nd Jun 2014 21:30

.

D.Dodds wrote:
My old boss used to say...'assumptions are the mother of all f##k ups' and there's alot of incorrect assumptions on here

Perhaps if you had divulged all details from the outset assumptions wouldn't have needed to be made?

You didn't pay for your training, no matter how you look at it. You accepted a salary that, at the time, you were happy with. As part of the package you were offered training that you would have to pay back if you left. Sorry, but it may may be making assumptions again...

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Replying to SteveHa:
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By D.Dodds
22nd Jun 2014 22:07

It's getting late but
Perhaps if you had divulged all details from the outset assumptions wouldn't have needed to be made?

Nevertheless, your assumptions were abrupt, Self-obsessed, etc?? You don't know anything about me. I've asked for some advice that's all...basically is there anything I could potentially do about the predictament I find myself in. For all I know this could be common practice!!

Assumptions (and incorrect assumptions at that) didn't need to be made. From being deceived by my employer you almost attempted to carry out a full psychoanalysis on me. The minor details were (and still are) irrelevant. My employer has acted improper (or at least I think so) and therefore I wanted to know whether I could do anything about it. The answer is probably no but I would thought I would ask.

Again, whether my employer paid for my training costs or not is irrelevant to my question. So you have all the facts and to enable a more thorough psychoanalysis, my salary was higher but it was reduced (by agreement of course) due to my training costs (including travel costs which they haven't paid for regardless of the fact that this, most certainly, is in writing).

Someone commented that I should be in politics, but people on here seem to ignore certain facts and answer any question they like, regardless of its relevance. Politics does interest me but I don't really want to deal with those pleb police officers or bigoted all ladies...oh dear, my political career might have ended before it has started. I guess I'm too self-obsessed.

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By User deleted
22nd Jun 2014 23:19

Funny ...

... always at weekends!

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By User deleted
23rd Jun 2014 08:44

You asked, I answered

Re-read my post of yesterday 7.46am

- I told you that if you want to find out if the Institute could help you then you should ask them directly. We don't work for the Institute so we can't give you a definitive answer, particularly as you are so against any of us making assumptions.

- I also said that you'd probably have to carry on in the same job until your repayment time was up if you weren't prepared to repay the costs.

- I told you to learn from the mistakes you'd made, and to work hard so that when you do leave there's a chance they'll give you a good reference. 

Your employer may or may not have made verbal assurances as to future salary / bonuses etc. But as you have no proof of that you're likely on a road to nowhere complaining. That sort of thing happens a lot in real life. People screw each other over. Decent people don't but they're not usually the ones who may it to the top in big businesses (unless they've started the business themselves). Whining about it won't do you any good, either at work or on here. You have 3 choices:

1, Ring the Institute and see if you have a chance at action

2, Take a new job, pay back the training costs and learn from the experience

3, Carry on with job for now and learn from the experience

Pick one and stick with it. Because while you're having a go at us you're not getting more money, your employer is still not changing, and all you're doing is building up more negative emotions inside yourself. And that won't benefit anyone. 

If you'd like me to re-phrase this with a pretty sugar coating on it then I will but the basic ingredients underneath will still taste the same. 

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By D.Dodds
23rd Jun 2014 12:59

Flash Gordon, I did not ask for a definite answer and I was only against people making assumptions that there irrelevant and unreasonable.

Of course, we will all learn from our mistake. We trusted our employer but, in our defence, we didn't think that a member bound by a code of ethics would act so unethically. But now, lesson definitely learnt.

I don't know if you're trying to wind me up or you just didn't read my comments correctly but my employer gave us all promises about future salary (not bonuses). There's no may or may not about it. Also, regardless of my sweet tooth I never asked for any sugar coating just whether anyone else has ever had a similar experience and if they had any advice.

However, you are correct... I am whining but I believe I have something to wind about. I will ring the institute, I've told you, I simply cannot repay the costs and I will have to carry on in my £18k job for now. You're also right with the negative emotions as I think another option would be to make that [***] chew a brick but them sort of ideas aren't healthy.

 

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Replying to pauljohnston:
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By User deleted
23rd Jun 2014 14:43

My point

D.Dodds wrote:

Flash Gordon, I did not ask for a definite answer and I was only against people making assumptions that there irrelevant and unreasonable.

Of course, we will all learn from our mistake. We trusted our employer but, in our defence, we didn't think that a member bound by a code of ethics would act so unethically. But now, lesson definitely learnt.

I don't know if you're trying to wind me up or you just didn't read my comments correctly but my employer gave us all promises about future salary (not bonuses). There's no may or may not about it. Also, regardless of my sweet tooth I never asked for any sugar coating just whether anyone else has ever had a similar experience and if they had any advice.

However, you are correct... I am whining but I believe I have something to wind about. I will ring the institute, I've told you, I simply cannot repay the costs and I will have to carry on in my £18k job for now. You're also right with the negative emotions as I think another option would be to make that [***] chew a brick but them sort of ideas aren't healthy.

Firstly, a code of ethics makes [***] all difference to the way people act. The decent ones don't need it, the ones who do need it won't take a damn bit of notice. It's a principle you can apply in all walks of life - for example, putting up notices telling people to pick up after their dogs is pointless because the good owners do that automatically and the bad ones will walk past the notices the same way they've walked past what their dog has just done.

No, I'm not trying to wind you up. My point with the may or may not is that you have zero proof of these promises, and that's why you've got a problem. If you'd learnt from the first time you'd have got it in writing the second time and then you'd be in a stronger position now. You can say that every single trainee was promised but if none of you have it in writing (or a tape-recording) then your words are as meaningful as if I said you'd promised to give £2k if I posted some comments on your thread. We could all claim you'd promised us - would you pay up then? Of course not, because we've no proof of it. 

Yes, I know you've said you can't afford to repay the costs. So yes, in all likelihood you're stuck there. Make the best of it. It's a job that pays you a wage you were, at one point, satisfied with. And as you accepted that you'd receive a lower wage but they'd pay the training costs, then you surely would have realised that in doing so you were bound to them until you'd qualified and got past the payback period? You could have said 'no ta, I'll take the higher wage but pay the costs myself' then you could have walked now. But you didn't. And actions have consequences.

And those sort of ideas aren't just not healthy, they're childish and could land you with a P45 (with the repayment on top). 

 

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By User deleted
23rd Jun 2014 14:05

What happened ...

... to that island in the South Pacific?

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By User deleted
23rd Jun 2014 14:26

Back to the OP ...

... YES

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By User deleted
23rd Jun 2014 15:49

Oh yes ...

... and bearing in mind the CGT question, this link might be useful

http://www.icaew.com/en/members/resources-for-practice/practice-management/practice-regulation/practising-certificate

 

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Replying to sasopuksic:
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By D.Dodds
24th Jun 2014 16:54

Somebody's got too much time on their hands.

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Replying to Accountant A:
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By User deleted
24th Jun 2014 17:32

I agree

D.Dodds wrote:
Somebody's got too much time on their hands.

Now that he has "retired at last" I guess he'll have nothing better to do than pester us.

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Replying to Euan MacLennan:
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By D.Dodds
23rd Jun 2014 19:40

Is this common on here?

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By User deleted
23rd Jun 2014 16:26

Sorry, but it's true

I really am bored with tired repeats. Hands up those who believe me (a simple "thanks" will suffice).

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By User deleted
23rd Jun 2014 16:30

Don't forget ...

... rule 14 guys!

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By User deleted
24th Jun 2014 13:07

God moves ...

... in mysterious ways indeed ;o)

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