Why HMRC should take lessons from the Scouts
“Be prepared” is the motto of the Scouting movement. If HMRC took this homily to heart perhaps it could avoid some of the delays and reformulations we see in key tax initiatives.
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thank you for using names
Andrew Griffith, the new Financial Secretary to the Treasury
"The Financial Secretary to the Treasury traditionally has responsibility for HMRC, so the decision to proceed with MTD ITSA, or delay it, will be in Griffith’s in-tray."
Would love the title to be
"Why Andrew Griffith and HMRC should take lessons from the Scouts"
"In many ways, RTI is the model for MTD ITSA, not MTD for VAT"
My recollection of the plans for RTI is that all employers, pension providers, etc, would return details of all employees each week or month to HMRC and pay the Gross amounts due directly to HMRC. HMRC would then collate all the income for each person for that period, including pensions, benefits, etc and then work out the amount of tax and other deductions due and then pay a single net amount to everyone directly to their bank. I think one of the main arguments for this was that Universal Credit could be worked out, where payable, based on actual income. Apparently this would work as it was all in Real Time.
The comparison of MTD for ITSA with RTi could not be more appropriate.
Although the original plans for RTI seemed ideal and achievable in the befuddled minds of the architects, any fool could find a thousand reasons why it would not, (and never will) work. MTD for ITSA is exactly the same ............ an impossible dream that will never work for a thousand reasons, many of which have been clearly highlighted on AWEB.
Tornado, you remember correctly. In a way, it is a pity HMRC did not proceed because the mega-car-crash would have silenced HMRC for decades and MTD would never have seen the light of day.
“The Financial Secretary to the Treasury traditionally has responsibility for HMRC”. Apparently, traditions exist to be broken.
"In many ways, RTI is the model for MTD ITSA" ... well it's a better comparator than MTD VAT certainly, but the two central differences are why RTI (sort of) worked and MTD ITSA won't:
* RTI is simply reporting outputs from processes that most companies (maybe not OMBs) were already carrying-out (in order to pay employees weekly/monthly and then HMRC once per month).
So there were no fundamental changes to data collection or key outputs (payslips/BACS/etc).
* RTI calcs are mostly PAYE calcs, which use use rolling YTD values at a point in time - a system that has been unchanged for decades (and which is still inviolate in HMRC's systems).
So there was no sudden introduction of new incomplete/estimated figures to report or the concept of deferring/accruing figures to different periods or re-allocating of processed figures to a different category etc.
I endorse your underlying point (essentially 'stop / think / discuss / plan /review') but there also needs to be the recognition that MTD ITSA is going to be completely new in almost aspect to most taxpayers - in a way that RTI or indeed SA and other innovations weren't really.
[As @Tornado alludes the hope of introducing Centralised Deductions (which actually pre-dated RTI) would have been as radically different - and is a warning not to take too big a giant step].
Hugo, are we really confident that MTD won’t work? At what point do you think HMRC will admit that it can’t get it to work. There do seem to be quite a few problems that have yet to be solved but the software houses and this site continue to plug webinars etc that one might assume have all the necessary answers
That rather depends on what you (or at least HMRC) mean by the word 'work'.
Will it achieve the publicised objectives/benefits? Not a hope in hell.
Will there be open rebellion (mass refusal to comply)? Probably not.
Will it assist the move to an (unannounced) grander scheme? Possibly (v slowly).
Will it go ahead and will people be fined for non-compliance? Almost certainly.
Will it slowly fall into disrepute (as an administrative waste of time that is bit-by-bit circumvented by later & leaner solutions)? Hopefully.
The only certainties are that more millions (billions?) will be wasted in pursuit of the impossible & unnecessary - and that the decision-makers have invested their own careers and won't back down.
[I can assure you absolutely no-one has "all the necessary answers" right now!]
Richard Fuller Economic Secretary to the Treasury is taking responsibility for HMRC, change of roles. Not Andrew Griffith FST.
Apologies, already commented on above
Learn from mistakes ? I doubt it.
Andrew Griffith may have been a boy scout. If so and hopefully for his sake , he earned his Survival Skills badge as far as MTD is concerned.
It's not just the Profession and Joe Public who are facing utter chaos , but also dwindling HMRC staff - or equally their inadequate administration - expected to cope with a useless idea.
Griffith should put the Revenue in order by using resources to tackle the rampant black economy and evasion which is evident countrywide.
Another British Army adage Griffith may take note of, as far as the remaining Revenue front line is concerned, are the lines from a certain Tennyson poem:
Theirs not to make reply
Theirs not to reason why
Theirs but to do and die.
"In many ways, RTI is the model for MTD ITSA, not MTD for VAT."
But not in the the most important way: digitisation. We had 100% digitised our payroll about 20 years ago (when HMRC actually paid businesses an incentive of £825 to digitise). RTI required us to report each pay period in advance rather than annually in arrears. But the data was already there in the software. In contrast MTD ITSA requires digitisation of transactions and digital links which are not currently required at present. It is this digitisation of transactions that I feel is the real problem of MTD ITSA.