Entrepreneurs say why they change accountants
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I provide NED-style mentoring and business development support to sole practitioner accountants who want to overcome feelings of isolation, frustration and overwhelm - being the only decison maker in their practice.
I am also Chair of the Tax Advice Network - a highly ranked online resource for anyone seeking indepdent tax advisers....
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I don't know about anybody
else but most of those interviewed wouldn't last 5 minutes with me. Too up their own arses or is that the norm for skiing networking entrepreneurs these days.
I prefer down to earth business people who don't consider themselves "experts" but are.
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I have enjoyed your trilogy Mark but I would be quite happy not acting for several of those people, no 1 and 6 sound like they are too important to pay any tax and its my fault that they do, and no. 8 can get stuffed quite frankly. Might as well have a preachy god botherer on your client list who is always trying to get you to come to their church.
Have to agree with JohnJenkins
My practice is now almost 20 years old and, looking back there were two things I got right.
The first was not to have any employees. The second was to have nice people for clients - makes a BIG difference.
This list reminded me of all the arrogant gits I could have had for clients.
How weird
I'm intrigued by the initial responses to this article - and some of the comments on the previous ones too.
I would hope that regular readers know I am a realist and endeavour to only share insights, advice and ideas that will be of benefit - free of the hype that sometimes permeates other commentators' articles.
If I felt that that my interviewees here had unreasonably high standards, unreasonable expectations or were 'arrogant gits' I would not have referenced their replies. I can assure you they are all 'nice people'.
Having said that I entirely agree that it's horses for courses and that accountants should only work with clients they feel comfortable serving. However it's a fact of life that most clients want to feel that their accountant is making an effort to help them to pay less tax than would otherwise be due if they didn’t have an accountant helping them
Just this week I talked to someone who had decided to do her own tax return as she couldn't afford to pay an accountant £480 to simply transcribe her numbers. "And he kept asking me how much to allow for various other things" she complained. "How am I supposed to know?"
In my view, SHE was being unreasonable. How could her accountant know how much she spent on items for which she had forgotten or omitted to get a receipt and what proportion of car and phone costs, for example, should be claimed as business? I pointed this out and stressed that by doing things herself she would probably end up paying more tax even if she was saving on an accountant's fees. It transpires that she hasn't earned enough to pay tax for years. IF she had she would want to pay less and yes that was indeed why she originally went to an accountant.
Entrepreneurs
I have to agree that your sample is compromised by including only people who identify as entrepreneurs. I would think that those who simply see themselves business owners would have more realistic expectations.
What sort of answer would have pleased No. 8?
Pro bono work
What sort of answer would have pleased No. 8?
In conversation it was evident that he wanted (and found) a firm that did pro bono work for local community organisations and that the level of such work was commensurate with the size of the practice. I cannot recall the examples he gave me at the time.
Difficult in practice
In conversation it was evident that he wanted (and found) a firm that did pro bono work for local community organisations and that the level of such work was commensurate with the size of the practice. I cannot recall the examples he gave me at the time.
But do the organisations that the firm do pro bono work for have to be ones for whom he also supports the objectives?
Probably
But do the organisations that the firm do pro bono work for have to be ones for whom he also supports the objectives?
Probably, but I don't know. Don't worry about it. It's just one example of one factor that a very wealthy entrepreneurial businessman took into account when choosing between prospective new accountants. I mentioned it by way of example that unless you ask, you won't know what matters most to a prospect or whether you stand no chance because your values are different to theirs.
entrepreneurs as clients
I avoid them.
This is a purely business decision. These are my reasons:
a) Their business can often grow fast or fail fast. In the former case, they outgrow my skill set, in the latter they may end up not being able to pay my fees.
b) They often make high demands on my time at short notice. This tends to cause a reduction in recovery £/hour and disrupts other client work.
@Mark
There is a marked difference between saving someone tax by having an Accountant and wanting the Accountant to be "creative".
It really isn't difficult to send money "offshore" or have a second hand car business that you don't really work for or put the wife on the books when she don't do anything.
Most of us ground level Accountants are ethical and tax payers will pick who they are confident with.
Mark, what do you think is the difference between an Entrepreneur and an ordinary business person, and in what category do see Accountants?
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Mark,
I think the thing I take away from this is you simply cant please lots of people and also highlights the wide ranging reasons people choose accountants and keep them, which leads me back to the conclusion to not worry too much about it and accept there will be churn for reasons largely outside of your control.
No.8 really got my goat as I cant see why on earth a client should seek to impose their values on my business or lifestyle. Moreover if I was asked what I was doing "to add value to people around them to their community" I would ask them (a) what they actually mean by that without using meaningless buzz words and (b) how what I might or might not do in my social or wider life affected my accounting work.
Dont forget we choose clients as much as they choose us. If I don't really care about a client then I cant really work for them, or if i do it will be on a superficial level of "compliance and churn" until they go and darken someone elses door.
@Red Leader
That's exactly how I see entrepreneurs. Some can be trained but most, by their very nature, can be away with the fairies. Inventors are of a similar breed. Trouble is we need these people, because without them business would stagnate.
Values, vision and community ethos
These words do tend to make most accountants suspicious.
This lot sound like they'd better stick to skiing.
Sheer incompetence might get entrepreneurs attention as most of them are concerned with creating opportunities that will enhance their business instead of anguishing as to whether or not their accountants are creative enough with their results.
Mark - I'd like to thank you for these articles. All three have been thought provoking.
What I've taken from this article is that we should always consider what drives our clients' decision making and what is important to them in their choice of accountant. Sure some people might not want to work with those types of clients they infer your sample describes, but it doesn't change the underlying point - what do the clients WE want want from us, and are we giving it to them?
What I've inferred from the comments is that business owners want the following from their accountant:
Someone who endeavours to understand their business and their ambitions and can and does try to help them achieve those ambitionsSomeone who isn't a basic compliance factorySomeone who returns their calls and (at least gives the impression) wants to helpSomeone they can get on with and gives them confidence they know what they're talking about and can add value to their business/life
Fortunately (and possibly this is no coincidence) what I've inferred from the comments in the article is what we try and do. Maybe my analysis is a bit blinkered! However what I have noticed is that want a client wants can change. We've had examples where we sign a new client who give far more than a vanilla compliance service, who then mention this to their friends and associates who didn't realise that there were accountants out there who did this stuff. They come to us pretty quickly.
The learning from that? What a client wants from us today might not be what they want/expect from us tomorrow.
Chris Scullard
Mark - I'd like to thank you for these articles. All three have been thought provoking.
What I've taken from this article is that we should always consider what drives our clients' decision making and what is important to them in their choice of accountant. Sure some people might not want to work with those types of clients they infer your sample describes, but it doesn't change the underlying point - what do the clients WE want want from us, and are we giving it to them?
What I've inferred from the comments is that business owners want the following from their accountant:
Someone who endeavours to understand their business and their ambitions and can and does try to help them achieve those ambitionsSomeone who isn't a basic compliance factorySomeone who returns their calls and (at least gives the impression) wants to helpSomeone they can get on with and gives them confidence they know what they're talking about and can add value to their business/life
Fortunately (and possibly this is no coincidence) what I've inferred from the comments in the article is what we try and do. Maybe my analysis is a bit blinkered! However what I have noticed is that want a client wants can change. We've had examples where we sign a new client who give far more than a vanilla compliance service, who then mention this to their friends and associates who didn't realise that there were accountants out there who did this stuff. They come to us pretty quickly.
The learning from that? What a client wants from us today might not be what they want/expect from us tomorrow.
The man with the smallest picture ever!!!
Small picture?
Mark - I'd like to thank you for these articles. All three have been thought provoking.
What I've taken from this article is that we should always consider what drives our clients' decision making and what is important to them in their choice of accountant. Sure some people might not want to work with those types of clients they infer your sample describes, but it doesn't change the underlying point - what do the clients WE want want from us, and are we giving it to them?
What I've inferred from the comments is that business owners want the following from their accountant:
Someone who endeavours to understand their business and their ambitions and can and does try to help them achieve those ambitionsSomeone who isn't a basic compliance factorySomeone who returns their calls and (at least gives the impression) wants to helpSomeone they can get on with and gives them confidence they know what they're talking about and can add value to their business/life
Fortunately (and possibly this is no coincidence) what I've inferred from the comments in the article is what we try and do. Maybe my analysis is a bit blinkered! However what I have noticed is that want a client wants can change. We've had examples where we sign a new client who give far more than a vanilla compliance service, who then mention this to their friends and associates who didn't realise that there were accountants out there who did this stuff. They come to us pretty quickly.
The learning from that? What a client wants from us today might not be what they want/expect from us tomorrow.
The man with the smallest picture ever!!!
Many say that showing as little of my face as possible is a good thing..................
Hi Mark
I've stayed out of commenting till this third one, other than perhaps a handful of paragraphs over the whole three, I think Donald sums it up perfectly
Real entrepeneurs are great clients in my view
Totally agree the last post.
In addition, real entrepeneurs are in my view great clients who need proper accountants more than any other sort of business owner. Just as a good FD is the right hand of a good MD, a good accountant is the right hand of an early stage entrepeneur who has not reached the stage yet of hiring an FD.
If the business crashes and burns through overtrading, that in my view is the accountant's fault just as much as the business owners and if any of my fast-growing clients did that I would take it personally. For example I have persuaded some of my clients NOT to take on contracts OR to insist on much more favourable payment terms than the propsective new customer was initially offering.
In early stage high growth businesses, in my view the prime role of the accountant is to make sure the business is growing at a sustainable rate without stretching its balance sheet. The main role is definitely NOT just to add up the numbers after the year-end. The good news is that in my view the first type of work is much more enjoyable and rewarding than the second.
Two way street
All comes down to communication doesn't it.
If you keep in touch with your client you should be aware of any issues which could cause him/her to be unsatisfied with the services you provide. You need to know what they need/want.
Respond to e-mails and return phone calls quickly (within 24 hours seems reasonable).
On the other hand there's always the chance they could get their head turned by another accountant.
A REAL entrepreneur
doesn't take a blind bit of notice what their Accountants say. They are blinkered with a goal to achieve. They either make or break. If they break they pull themselves up, dust themselves down and start all over again.
As long as the Accountant is happy with that they will make good clients.
JohnJenkins - I totally disagree. A REAL entrepreneur wants the same level of financial support that the MD of a large business wants. They want regular, fully analysed MI, they want a budget, they want variance analysis, they want profit and cash flow forecasts and they want to have a monthly board meeting to review all these and make strategic decisions accordingly.
This next point won't win me any popularlity prizes on here, but the key weakness most practioners have is that they have never been an FD or Head of Finance and so don't have the skillset to provide all of the above, at least not to the same standard as an FD who has worked in industry for years.
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This next point won't win me any popularlity prizes on here, but the key weakness most practioners have is that they have never been an FD or Head of Finance and so don't have the skillset to provide all of the above, at least not to the same standard as an FD who has worked in industry for years.
i agree 100% with that, I had junior roles in industry but when asked to do the FD role (as I am at the moment on an interim basis for my largest client due to their losing their internal help) it takes all my efforts to do it and I am sure I dont do it as well as I would if I had been doing it for years.
@Chris
We obviously have a different idea of what an entrepreneur is. What you have outlined in your post appears to me to be a business that really should have an in-house Accountant then run the results by their outside Accountant.
all about managing
expectations (both realistic and unrealistic ones). If a 'real' entrepreneur really wants the type of support detailed above there are only two questions, are they willing to pay for it, and have they asked the right questions of the agent they signed up with.
Realistic expectation - accountant accepted engagement on basis that they would provide on going proactive advice - tax and general - right to gripe if this is not experienced by Entrepreneur.
Unrealistic expectation - just because same 'old' compliance work done year in year out doesn't mean that it falls outside of the world of inflation.
I think we
have to differentiate between a small Accountant in practice and a larger concern that offers the kind of services Chris is talking about.
You don't have to have been an FD to know how a business should be run just a good training, and common sense.
The problem with common sense is that it makes you think, and I am sure there are people "pulling the strings" that don't want us to think, that's why we have "compliance"
One good thing though - a bit of flexibility has been shown with new parking regulations. You watch that go out of the window when the "take" goes down.
yes they pay!
In my experience, yes they pay well!
For one thing they have businesses which are throwing off a lot of cash. So by definition a real entrepeneur is not in the "too skint too afford the fees" bracket. Personally I have only ever lost one of these clients when they either outgrew me as a sole practitioner or left the area, again by definition a remote accountant is not a good fit for them either in my view.
Business success rarely comes to people who blindly press ahead with their own projects in complete disregard of the views of others. Look no further than HMRC for an example of that! I have in fact found that the guy who is gorwing sales and staff numbers by 50% to 100% per year and throwing off profits and cash is MUCH more likely to genuinely listen to me than the guy running the local pub paying people cash in hand and chucking his supplier invoices into a pile in the corner of the tap room.
@mr. mischief
Sorry to pull you up on this but you said you have only lost one client then go on to say they outgrew you or left the area. The inference is that you have lost more than one client, possibly more than two.
yes they pay...
begs the question why in this case they appear not to have asked a few fundamental questions - like I would like proactive advice on avoiding tax or would like you to be 'creative'...
I'm surprised that none of them mentioned that they'd be prepared to change accountants if offered a free mug.
(And yes, for those members / moderators with no sense of humour, that was a joke.)
Newsletters, Referrals
There is a place for a general newsletter, although this is making me think how to improve content to make it easier for clients access relevant news . Had not thought about incentivising referrers but will give it some thought.
rephrase
To rephrase more accurately "The only occasions I have lost such clients was when they either outgrew me or moved out of the area."
A representative panel?
I don't think your fellow 'skiers' are very representative of the vast majority of business owners. Some of them I think have axes to grind. While some of the points made do have validity I think it needs taking with a bigish pinch of salt. Many business owners don't have a vision or mission or any of the other buzz words that mean little to most, if they have a vision it's keeping afloat for another year, paying the mortgage and being able to perhaps have a holiday in the sun once a year and of course pay as little tax as they have to.
Paying too much tax
How do these people know they are paying too much tax or more than is legally necessary? If a good accountant is dong his job properly, that should happen anyway but not so as to be risky or open to obvious challenge. They are not going to get it certified!!! If they change accountants and get the tax reduced, how do they know that it is right and be sure that HMRC will not turn up one day wanting to go back 6 years. Sounds to me like lack of communication with client, quite possibly because client will not pay for the extra time it takes.
@tonyaustin
Maybe these guys feel their accountant could be saving them more tax because they aren't taking the time to find out and understand their circumstances so it FEELS like they could be doing more.
Maybe they don't communicate regularly with the business owners and only find out they could have saved tax by some simple planning if only they'd known earlier.
Maybe they are doing everything they can but it feels like they could be doing more.
With these things perception is far more important than reality.
getting the right fit
Well, people buy people and accountants should chose clients as much as the other way round.
We need to be honest when there isn't a good fit ...and some of the skiers who aren't happy probably took a chance, but then entrepreneurs are risk takers so no surprise really, they were probably all barrelling down the black runs....
As a profession we are too inclined to be apologetic or defensive instead of saying these are my strengths and this is how I work and be proud of it, and not fussed if it doesn't suit everyone. As long as your personality and skills fit your target clients, that's all that really matters.
Accountancy is pretty incestuous, I recommend people to other accountants I know who I think will serve them well if it isn't my bag (as a specialist).