I agree, my comment also during the 'client onboarding process' would class this as being re taking on a client, fact finding, permanent file creation, ML work and preparing the engagement letter and risk assessment.
This takes a few hours in particular I visit them onsite to sign everything up, and therefore have a fee listed within the letter of engagement, whereby only if they don't continue to let us start any work for them, would this be due to cover our set up costs.
They are not charged it and indeed only a couple of times have I needed to apply for the fee and they have apologised for not continuing and paid it, to cover my set up costs, as it was made clear at the start. I have never had anyone complain about it being in, as the majority know they are going to proceed anyway and therefore not have to pay it.
I always highlight to a client that the onboarding process takes time and I personally visit them to sign them up too, that if they do not proceed with any work a fee of X is due to cover the time I spent during the onboarding process (wording included in the letter of engagement). If they stay, the charge is not levied. This covers me for those who fall by the wayside after spending hours setting things up for 'free.' It has only happened a couple of times though, since I started in 2004, where someone has not proceeded after sign up.
Davidross, using technology still takes time. And if you mean the client using it, think again.
An awful lot of my self employed clients don't even know how to use their phones properly and would not know where to start with software or on a computer. I suppose they are supposed to also take a course in book keeping and do their own, knowing what codes to put things to, and of course discern whether it is a valid VAT receipt or not.
It will take more time in us undoing their errors than inputting it in the first place, except there is no more time to process these additional submissions. HMRC are in cloud cuckoo land with this one.
I agree, I am a sole practitioner and can only take my annual leave twice a year between the 05th and 19th of the month, to accommodate timely submissions of VAT returns and monthly payroll RTIS etc. There is only me and I've been doing this now for 17 years just fine. If I return on the 19th, I don't know how I would get everyone's work done in time for these additional month end submissions, when already snowed under, and it would not be possible for me to employ anyone to help.
Lionofludesch, you are assuming that all those lower earning self employed people have smart phones and know how to use technology. I have lots of clients who do not. At the other end of the scale, I even have a client who turns over more than a million and doesn't know how to use their phone or a computer in this way. You also assume that this person understands book keeping and knows how to code their purchases and sales - a lot do not.
If its the tax they are after on a more regular basis from the self employed, why can't they simplify it and just ask the self employed person to pay tax payments on account on a monthly basis, based on the previous years submission. Then they are getting the tax in regularly without all this farce?
It is going to be a nightmare, especially for those clients who are not computer literate or not very organised with paperwork. How will the lower earners be able to afford all these additional requirements, both in the provision of software and increased accountancy fees? It beggars belief doesn't it.
I plan with all my clients to make sure we have all the information necessary to hit the deadline each year.
I email, phone and nag. I just don't understand this outcry to ask for an extension, everyone has had 9 months to prepare for these returns?
I am not a big practice with lots on hands of deck either and like everyone else, have been dealing with the minefield and increased pressure of all those furlough claims at the same time as normal work throughout the year.
If an accountant waits until January to obtain a clients P60 or income details or books, then they have failed to plan in my opinion.
(The only exception for me would be unless of course a new client turns up in the last few weeks of January and asks for a tax return to be submitted without any information on hand).
Since 2004, all my clients have paid by monthly standing order (as I work to fixed fees), and I have never had to chase a client for payment.
Those that I do ad hoc work for on top of their fixed fee, pay immediately I invoice them , because I have a good business relationship with them and have earned their respect. They can't wait to pay their additional bill, as they know I am a great helping hand to their business and are appreciative of the service I have given to them (even if their finances are very tight, they find a way to pay immediately).
Indeed, I have done some free additional work during furlough to show my support of them, and now that these businesses are up and running fully again, they have given me additional fee work to do and have paid straight away for this too.
This article seems very cold to me and seems to be basing its assumption that practices treat clients as numbers and have no business relationship at all.
The only time I would ask for payment up front, is if a new client came to me with a very tight deadline that required me to delay current work, in order to achieve this short notice work. As they are new and we don't know one another, they usually understand and pay without complaint. But this is the only time, I would ask for payment up front.
Exactly my thoughts Ian. The smaller one man band clients will not be happy, having to pay me for the more regular processing of their figures for HMRC, and how does a stand alone practitioner like me (who does not want to expand or take on staff), handle all this additional work? I am doing far more than I used to, with all the revamps HMRC have had in the last 5 or 6 years. It's getting grim and bleak for those of us doing the work too.
I bet they will again start to carp on about how many £millions will be saved by companies on this one, instead of opening their eyes on the costs it will reign down on the small companies who simply won't be able to afford it.
The information coming in has been confusing for clients to say the least.
At first we read that:
'If an employee is already receiving SSP as they are off sick or self-isolating, they would not be able to be placed on furloughed leave and should continue on SSP'.
Later we read... Employers are also entitled to furlough employees who are being shielded or off on long-term sick leave. It is up to the employers to decide whether to furlough these employees. You can claim back from both the CJRS and SSP rebate scheme for the same employee, for not for the same period of time.
With so much additional work being carried out by accountants at the moment for their clients, it is hard to keep up, and also in some instances, our own interpretation has to be made when it is not totally clear, because something comes up that HMRC has not considered yet.
My answers
I agree, my comment also during the 'client onboarding process' would class this as being re taking on a client, fact finding, permanent file creation, ML work and preparing the engagement letter and risk assessment.
This takes a few hours in particular I visit them onsite to sign everything up, and therefore have a fee listed within the letter of engagement, whereby only if they don't continue to let us start any work for them, would this be due to cover our set up costs.
They are not charged it and indeed only a couple of times have I needed to apply for the fee and they have apologised for not continuing and paid it, to cover my set up costs, as it was made clear at the start. I have never had anyone complain about it being in, as the majority know they are going to proceed anyway and therefore not have to pay it.
I always highlight to a client that the onboarding process takes time and I personally visit them to sign them up too, that if they do not proceed with any work a fee of X is due to cover the time I spent during the onboarding process (wording included in the letter of engagement). If they stay, the charge is not levied. This covers me for those who fall by the wayside after spending hours setting things up for 'free.' It has only happened a couple of times though, since I started in 2004, where someone has not proceeded after sign up.
Davidross, using technology still takes time. And if you mean the client using it, think again.
An awful lot of my self employed clients don't even know how to use their phones properly and would not know where to start with software or on a computer. I suppose they are supposed to also take a course in book keeping and do their own, knowing what codes to put things to, and of course discern whether it is a valid VAT receipt or not.
It will take more time in us undoing their errors than inputting it in the first place, except there is no more time to process these additional submissions. HMRC are in cloud cuckoo land with this one.
I agree, I am a sole practitioner and can only take my annual leave twice a year between the 05th and 19th of the month, to accommodate timely submissions of VAT returns and monthly payroll RTIS etc. There is only me and I've been doing this now for 17 years just fine. If I return on the 19th, I don't know how I would get everyone's work done in time for these additional month end submissions, when already snowed under, and it would not be possible for me to employ anyone to help.
Lionofludesch, you are assuming that all those lower earning self employed people have smart phones and know how to use technology. I have lots of clients who do not. At the other end of the scale, I even have a client who turns over more than a million and doesn't know how to use their phone or a computer in this way. You also assume that this person understands book keeping and knows how to code their purchases and sales - a lot do not.
If its the tax they are after on a more regular basis from the self employed, why can't they simplify it and just ask the self employed person to pay tax payments on account on a monthly basis, based on the previous years submission. Then they are getting the tax in regularly without all this farce?
It is going to be a nightmare, especially for those clients who are not computer literate or not very organised with paperwork. How will the lower earners be able to afford all these additional requirements, both in the provision of software and increased accountancy fees? It beggars belief doesn't it.
I plan with all my clients to make sure we have all the information necessary to hit the deadline each year.
I email, phone and nag. I just don't understand this outcry to ask for an extension, everyone has had 9 months to prepare for these returns?
I am not a big practice with lots on hands of deck either and like everyone else, have been dealing with the minefield and increased pressure of all those furlough claims at the same time as normal work throughout the year.
If an accountant waits until January to obtain a clients P60 or income details or books, then they have failed to plan in my opinion.
(The only exception for me would be unless of course a new client turns up in the last few weeks of January and asks for a tax return to be submitted without any information on hand).
Since 2004, all my clients have paid by monthly standing order (as I work to fixed fees), and I have never had to chase a client for payment.
Those that I do ad hoc work for on top of their fixed fee, pay immediately I invoice them , because I have a good business relationship with them and have earned their respect. They can't wait to pay their additional bill, as they know I am a great helping hand to their business and are appreciative of the service I have given to them (even if their finances are very tight, they find a way to pay immediately).
Indeed, I have done some free additional work during furlough to show my support of them, and now that these businesses are up and running fully again, they have given me additional fee work to do and have paid straight away for this too.
This article seems very cold to me and seems to be basing its assumption that practices treat clients as numbers and have no business relationship at all.
The only time I would ask for payment up front, is if a new client came to me with a very tight deadline that required me to delay current work, in order to achieve this short notice work. As they are new and we don't know one another, they usually understand and pay without complaint. But this is the only time, I would ask for payment up front.
Exactly my thoughts Ian. The smaller one man band clients will not be happy, having to pay me for the more regular processing of their figures for HMRC, and how does a stand alone practitioner like me (who does not want to expand or take on staff), handle all this additional work? I am doing far more than I used to, with all the revamps HMRC have had in the last 5 or 6 years. It's getting grim and bleak for those of us doing the work too.
I bet they will again start to carp on about how many £millions will be saved by companies on this one, instead of opening their eyes on the costs it will reign down on the small companies who simply won't be able to afford it.
The information coming in has been confusing for clients to say the least.
At first we read that:
'If an employee is already receiving SSP as they are off sick or self-isolating, they would not be able to be placed on furloughed leave and should continue on SSP'.
Later we read... Employers are also entitled to furlough employees who are being shielded or off on long-term sick leave. It is up to the employers to decide whether to furlough these employees. You can claim back from both the CJRS and SSP rebate scheme for the same employee, for not for the same period of time.
With so much additional work being carried out by accountants at the moment for their clients, it is hard to keep up, and also in some instances, our own interpretation has to be made when it is not totally clear, because something comes up that HMRC has not considered yet.