I can assure you it was the reason given, BUT... I think it is more to do with the demise of electronic folder and the use of "Caseflow" to retain records. Apparently another great leap forward for HMRC - caseflow was apparently used by a shoe manufacturer, now it is used by soul less HMRC.
Melanie
The other factor which may kick in is what records HMRC now how as a result of GDPR. I had previously requested copies of visit reports and was told that HMRC now only hold information going back 6 years... unless it is important enough to be retained longer. I understand that the "selection" process to determine what is important is not as detailed as you would hope. i.e. everything over 6 years old is now dumped.
Yawn... you could have saved yourself all that time and deliberation if you had just looked at the relevant section of the VAT Act... im glad I'm not paying for your "advice".
In s. 77(1)(b), the words “4 years” were substituted for the words “3 years” by FA 2008, s. 118 and Sch. 39, para. 34(2), with effect from 1 April 2009 (FA 2008, s. 118(2); SI 2009/403 (C. 24), art. 2(1)).
77(1) Subject to the following provisions of this section, an assessment under section 73 or 76, shall not be made–
(a)more than 4 years after the end of the prescribed accounting period or importation concerned, or
(b)in the case of an assessment under section 76 of an amount due by way of a penalty which is not among those referred to in subsection (3) of that section, 4 years after the event giving rise to the penalty.
77(1) Subject to the following provisions of this section, an assessment under section 73 or 76, shall not be made–
(a)more than 4 years after the end of the prescribed accounting period or importation concerned, or
(b)in the case of an assessment under section 76 of an amount due by way of a penalty which is not among those referred to in subsection (3) of that section, 4 years after the event giving rise to the penalty.
77(1) Subject to the following provisions of this section, an assessment under section 73 or 76, shall not be made–
(a)more than 4 years after the end of the prescribed accounting period or importation concerned, or
(b)in the case of an assessment under section 76 of an amount due by way of a penalty which is not among those referred to in subsection (3) of that section, 4 years after the event giving rise to the penalty.
I respectfully considered your point and your various opinions, I stand by my original point, you have stated that;
"Might I thus respectfully opine that considering whether any potential EXEMPTION applies to the acquisition is not of relevance and that you are conflating that concept with the separate concept of whether there was any VAT which was CHARGEABLE."
I was not considering whether the original acquisition was exempt. As you correctly point out the original purchase was subject to VAT. I floated the idea that the sale (as outlined in the original question) could be exempt under Schedule 9 Group 14.
Following further investigation by others who had more time and interest in the matter identified that the original input tax would not be "blocked" therefore Schedule 9 Group 14 would not apply. Et voila, it was standard rated UNLESS the margin scheme applied as suggested by Les. I did NOT acknowledge you were correct or that I conflated any points.
Therefore I fail to see how you can convince yourself that you were correct and if I can quote the following to my learned friend, in the words of Orlov "Simples".
My answers
I can assure you it was the reason given, BUT... I think it is more to do with the demise of electronic folder and the use of "Caseflow" to retain records. Apparently another great leap forward for HMRC - caseflow was apparently used by a shoe manufacturer, now it is used by soul less HMRC.
See HMRC's guidance for sooo much less information;
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/compliance-operational-guidance...
Surely it would be insane to delete all old visit reports (VAT) and rulings. Watch this space and see what happens.
Melanie
The other factor which may kick in is what records HMRC now how as a result of GDPR. I had previously requested copies of visit reports and was told that HMRC now only hold information going back 6 years... unless it is important enough to be retained longer. I understand that the "selection" process to determine what is important is not as detailed as you would hope. i.e. everything over 6 years old is now dumped.
Yawn... you could have saved yourself all that time and deliberation if you had just looked at the relevant section of the VAT Act... im glad I'm not paying for your "advice".
In s. 77(1)(b), the words “4 years” were substituted for the words “3 years” by FA 2008, s. 118 and Sch. 39, para. 34(2), with effect from 1 April 2009 (FA 2008, s. 118(2); SI 2009/403 (C. 24), art. 2(1)).
Hmmm... https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/vat-assessments-and-error-corre...
Ahem, you say the time limit is 6 years?...
77(1) Subject to the following provisions of this section, an assessment under section 73 or 76, shall not be made–
(a)more than 4 years after the end of the prescribed accounting period or importation concerned, or
(b)in the case of an assessment under section 76 of an amount due by way of a penalty which is not among those referred to in subsection (3) of that section, 4 years after the event giving rise to the penalty.
Ahem, you say the time limit is 6 years?...
77(1) Subject to the following provisions of this section, an assessment under section 73 or 76, shall not be made–
(a)more than 4 years after the end of the prescribed accounting period or importation concerned, or
(b)in the case of an assessment under section 76 of an amount due by way of a penalty which is not among those referred to in subsection (3) of that section, 4 years after the event giving rise to the penalty.
Ahem, you say the time limit is 6 years?...
77(1) Subject to the following provisions of this section, an assessment under section 73 or 76, shall not be made–
(a)more than 4 years after the end of the prescribed accounting period or importation concerned, or
(b)in the case of an assessment under section 76 of an amount due by way of a penalty which is not among those referred to in subsection (3) of that section, 4 years after the event giving rise to the penalty.
Basil
IMHO if you were my adviser/lawyer I would have sacked you by now.
@fawltybasil2575
I respectfully considered your point and your various opinions, I stand by my original point, you have stated that;
"Might I thus respectfully opine that considering whether any potential EXEMPTION applies to the acquisition is not of relevance and that you are conflating that concept with the separate concept of whether there was any VAT which was CHARGEABLE."
I was not considering whether the original acquisition was exempt. As you correctly point out the original purchase was subject to VAT. I floated the idea that the sale (as outlined in the original question) could be exempt under Schedule 9 Group 14.
Following further investigation by others who had more time and interest in the matter identified that the original input tax would not be "blocked" therefore Schedule 9 Group 14 would not apply. Et voila, it was standard rated UNLESS the margin scheme applied as suggested by Les. I did NOT acknowledge you were correct or that I conflated any points.
Therefore I fail to see how you can convince yourself that you were correct and if I can quote the following to my learned friend, in the words of Orlov "Simples".
Have a great day.