Member Since: 17th Dec 2009
2nd Jul 2020
The card top up in itself isn't the sale. The sale isn't made until goods are purchased.
But when is the tax point ?
If these are vouchers then the tax point is the date of money being credited to the card.
I have talked to a few other members in different clubs who are on Committee etc and I think it's fair to say that not many of them have even considered the voucher issue: almost all are treating the money credited to the card as a deposit by the member with no VAT consequences and are accounting for output VAT on the sale when drinks or food are purchased.
2nd Jul 2020
The club can tell what balance is on the card at anytime but if the initial money (£50) is not used up by the end of the year, it is taken as a deemed donation to the club. Any top ups over the £50 are carried forward to the next year.
So is the consensus that these cards are definitely single purpose vouchers even though they confer a 10% discount and cannot be transferred which are two of the conditions for them not to be considered to be vouchers?
23rd Apr 2020
No, all that happens is that you have £100 less of an allowance that you can't use because your er's NI total for the year is less than £4,000. You can't carry unused relief forward so it's lost and it makes no difference if you lose £1,500 of an allowance or £1,600 of an allowance if you can't use it.
23rd Apr 2020
Remember that to get the £100 NI back in the CJRS claim, you have to pay HMRC the £100 NI in the first place so it makes no difference for those who claim less than the EA maximum of £4,000
23rd Apr 2020
lionofludesch I agree with you on those who would not use the full EA and we have just claimed EA from month 1 for those that we know won't get close to it. We are also getting agreement from clients on whether to defer EA.
Some clients maybe only have 25% of the workforce on furlough and the cashflow advantage of not paying er's NI on the remaining 75% outweighs to potential loss long term.
There is a lot of work in getting the most effective solution in every case but hopefully clients will appreciate it in the long term.
22nd Apr 2020
The HMRC guidance on Employment Allowance states "You can claim at any time in the tax year, but the earlier you claim the sooner you will get the allowance". This was obviously written pre CJRS but it is clear that you do not need to make a claim from month 1.
The only reference in the CJRS to the EA states that you must deduct any EA claimed from Er's NI before making a claim under the CJRS but it infers that only applies if you have made a claim for EA.
Some employers who only have a small number on furlough may still wish to claim EA but others with high numbers on furlough may not.
I never get into controversial areas if I can help it and always err on the side of caution but it appears to me that we could be subject to potential claims for negligence if we don't defer the claim for EA for employers who have large numbers on CJRS when we do the payroll.
I have read everything I can get my hands on and have called Markel Tax and Croner and nothing has convinced me that we can't defer claiming EA.
22nd Apr 2020
The Employment Allowance guidance states "You can claim at any time in the tax year, but the earlier you claim the sooner you will get the allowance"
This was obviously written per CJRS but there is nothing to state that you can't defer the claim for EA and from a client's perspective it is clearly beneficial to recover er's NI just now through the CJRS scheme and retain the full £4,000 to claim against er's NI later in the year after CJRS has finished.
I am normally very careful not to do anything that could even be construed to be borderline but I am equally conscious that if we process payroll and tick the box to claim EA from Month 1, some clients, after a chat down the pub with their mates, may be very upset if they find they have lost some of the benefit of EA unnecessarily.
I have scoured everything I can, have phoned Croner and Markel Tax and haven't been able to get any clarity apart from the fact that the EA guidance says you can claim it at any time and the CJRS only mentions that IF you claim EA you have to deduct it from the er's NI before making your claim under the furlough scheme.
23rd Jan 2020
That was my thought too. It is a husband/wife partnership and they have about 5 agencies all operating in the same type of product. However the agency lost made up over 65% of their income and its loss forced them to close their premises and operate the remaining diminished agencies from their house. My feeling was that the loss was sufficiently large to justify the disposal of a substantial/significant part of the business.
5th Nov 2019
I rang the same number this morning as well and got told exactly the same. When the documentation makes it clear that the form and the payment should be made within 30 days it is wholly unacceptable that HMRC should be dragging their heals on issuing payment references.
It's also difficult to persuade a client at the other side of the world that it really is HMRC who are at fault here and I can't do any more than I have done.
4th Nov 2019
As an aside, does anyone know how long it takes HMRC to issue a payment reference for NRCGT. I submitted a form for a client about 2 weeks ago and with 8 days of the ridiculous 30 days time limit left. The NRCGT instructions from HMRC make it quite clear that payment should not be made without the reference they will issue but we still haven't heard from them and we are now into late payment interest territory.
The Agent's helpline was of no help in finding an answer.