And a final note: you have used 'horrible' 'oppressor' and 'victim', not me. That is your framing.
I try (not always successfully but repeatedly) to see it like this: there is a problem here that affects people I care about and the community I live in, and me. If I can do something to improve the situation, I should try. And understanding those problems and how they affect other people will help make my feeble efforts more productive...
But that doesn't mean we should start making hiring decisions, giving special treatment or framing certain groups as victims or oppressed and other groups as oppressors. That just makes everything worse and creates division and resentment.
I could argue that making 'certain groups' apply for jobs more often than certain other groups is giving them special treatment, albeit negative, and we have the power to change that. And why wait?
'telling us that we are a racist country is that is doesn't reconcile with the experience we all have of living here.'
We don't *all* have that experience. I haven't been stopped by the police on suspicion, had people move their bags out of the way when I walk towards them, etc but I have been with black friends when its happened to them.
And don't you see it's possible that routine sexual harassment and discrimination exists without accusing every man being a rapist
We should all be treated equally, but we are not, and are a long way from it. While we are not treated equally, why not draw attention to the issue and take action to level the playing field? Our perception of what is 'equal treatment' (not to say 'merit') is framed by our own view and experience; interrogating this to check our underlying assumptions shouldn't be challenging
Ignoring it when we know it exists is a hard stance to defend...
I am getting a bit tired of this, but I hope you will bear with me one more time (and while I am tired of it I can at least walk away from the keyboard when I want; black and brown people can't evade the endless tiresome racism, ditto disabled people)
It is possible for people to be disadvantaged in any number of ways; there is an attainment gap between black children on FSM compared to better off black children, and black and white FSM attainment is not that different. Narrowing the gap for all on FSM would help everyone. So what do you think could be done to help this?
If 'we are not racist' how do you explain the job application data I referenced earlier?
Diversity of experience informs diversity of view point doesn't it, so why exclude experience of racism from the conversation? And when 'articles like this' were not common, no one thought there was a problem, so no one was trying to do anything about it. And we have agreed that it would be better if society was more equal, so talking and thinking about how to achieve this may be challenging, but is helpful and necessary
There are some technical abilities we can test for in this business, but do remember that to get to that point, the candidate has to have done well at school (see the FSM point), have the resources to get qualified (no student loans for that), got an interview (see the CV point) and convinced you they will be 'good with clients' (see the ICAEW report about assuming shared cultural references and habits), and will work all the hours it takes (hard with disabilities or childcare responsibilities). And they have to want to work for a firm that is predominantly run by white men...
This goes back to my point that if you think black/brown/women/gay/people with disabilities are treated equally in society, or that the accountancy profession is not part of society, I think you are wrong, and there is plenty of evidence of this
Here's a suggestion (and apologies if you have already done this); ask the 80% of your firm who are women what their experience of sexual harassment or discrimination has been in their career. I don't think it will be the same as yours...
1. Have you actually read the govt report: Here's one datum: "Unemployment rates for the 16 to 24 group are high even for those from Indian and Chinese ethnic groups who comfortably outperform the White average in education and incomes overall and generally benefit from positive stereotypes"
2. I agree more should be done to increase social mobility and opportunity for people from working class/low income/FSM backgrounds.
4. No one forces companies to hire anyone, let alone 'based on the colour of their skin'. We know that diverse teams (diverse in all directions) perform better (https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter) because they bring more viewpoints to scrutinise decisions.
But is it still very common for people to think (often unintentionally) that 'merit' resides remarkably often in people who look/think/talk/behave/grew up like us. We have to scrutinise ourselves and actively try to learn from people with different experiences
Actually, I would argue the counter. If you're female or a minority you have an easier time progressing than a white male because so many companies and institutions have these quotas now.
...
I've heard the systems/structure argument before but never with an example. Perhaps you can share an example of a system/structure that relates to accounting which as been setup which discriminates women and minorities?
1. You are welcome to argue it, please can you offer any evidence?
2. Here's one of many to support my point: across the board, candidates from minority backgrounds are much less likely to be selected for interview than the exact same application from a white applicant http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/?p=1299
(oh and 'in spite of relatively strong laws prohibiting discrimination on ethnic, racial and religious grounds, the level of discrimination is higher in Britain than in the other four countries')
So it looks like the meritocracy you describe is not in full effect.
Agree that in lots of areas, it is hard to see a 'privilege'. But for all those people, being white just means people have one less problem to face than their black/brown peers. It doesn't mean they have it easy.
No matter what your identity is, in the UK if you're good at what you do and you work hard you can progress, that's just a fact.
This is true. But it is demonstrably easier to progress further and faster if you are white, male, middle-class background, able bodied etc.
It's not (just) about a few 'bad apples' determinedly discriminating against people they don't like (though they exist) or (just) about people not having been aware of the impact of their often thoughtless actions (though that happens a lot too); it's the cumulative effect of those and the systems/structures set up by people who don't face those challenges (often well meaning, but still) that prevent everyone reaching their potential
And if everyone can reach their potential, we have a richer (literally and metaphorically) and happier society. Win:win.
(and no one is vilifying white men as a class. we are all human)
this is not about you personally. And on a case by case basis you maybe as equitably minded as anyone.
But if you are saying that black/brown people, people with disabilities, women, gay people are treated equally in society as a whole, then I have some news for you...
If you agree there is a problem (and as you notice, there are inequalities in lots of dimensions), and you, as an employer, leader, maybe a parent, are in a position to do something about it, why not try it?
So if the board/leadership team is disproportionately white & male, that is simply because they are 'better' (ie more 'good') than everyone else? Hmmm...
My answers
And a final note: you have used 'horrible' 'oppressor' and 'victim', not me. That is your framing.
I try (not always successfully but repeatedly) to see it like this: there is a problem here that affects people I care about and the community I live in, and me. If I can do something to improve the situation, I should try. And understanding those problems and how they affect other people will help make my feeble efforts more productive...
You do your thing, whatever that is
I could argue that making 'certain groups' apply for jobs more often than certain other groups is giving them special treatment, albeit negative, and we have the power to change that. And why wait?
'telling us that we are a racist country is that is doesn't reconcile with the experience we all have of living here.'
We don't *all* have that experience. I haven't been stopped by the police on suspicion, had people move their bags out of the way when I walk towards them, etc but I have been with black friends when its happened to them.
And don't you see it's possible that routine sexual harassment and discrimination exists without accusing every man being a rapist
We should all be treated equally, but we are not, and are a long way from it. While we are not treated equally, why not draw attention to the issue and take action to level the playing field? Our perception of what is 'equal treatment' (not to say 'merit') is framed by our own view and experience; interrogating this to check our underlying assumptions shouldn't be challenging
Ignoring it when we know it exists is a hard stance to defend...
Thanks, credit to John Amaechi for that... "What is white privilege? - BBC Bitesize" https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/articles/zrvkbqt
I am getting a bit tired of this, but I hope you will bear with me one more time (and while I am tired of it I can at least walk away from the keyboard when I want; black and brown people can't evade the endless tiresome racism, ditto disabled people)
It is possible for people to be disadvantaged in any number of ways; there is an attainment gap between black children on FSM compared to better off black children, and black and white FSM attainment is not that different. Narrowing the gap for all on FSM would help everyone. So what do you think could be done to help this?
If 'we are not racist' how do you explain the job application data I referenced earlier?
Diversity of experience informs diversity of view point doesn't it, so why exclude experience of racism from the conversation? And when 'articles like this' were not common, no one thought there was a problem, so no one was trying to do anything about it. And we have agreed that it would be better if society was more equal, so talking and thinking about how to achieve this may be challenging, but is helpful and necessary
There are some technical abilities we can test for in this business, but do remember that to get to that point, the candidate has to have done well at school (see the FSM point), have the resources to get qualified (no student loans for that), got an interview (see the CV point) and convinced you they will be 'good with clients' (see the ICAEW report about assuming shared cultural references and habits), and will work all the hours it takes (hard with disabilities or childcare responsibilities). And they have to want to work for a firm that is predominantly run by white men...
This goes back to my point that if you think black/brown/women/gay/people with disabilities are treated equally in society, or that the accountancy profession is not part of society, I think you are wrong, and there is plenty of evidence of this
Here's a suggestion (and apologies if you have already done this); ask the 80% of your firm who are women what their experience of sexual harassment or discrimination has been in their career. I don't think it will be the same as yours...
1. Have you actually read the govt report: Here's one datum: "Unemployment rates for the 16 to 24 group are high even for those from Indian and Chinese ethnic groups who comfortably outperform the White average in education and incomes overall and generally benefit from positive stereotypes"
2. I agree more should be done to increase social mobility and opportunity for people from working class/low income/FSM backgrounds.
3. As Dave said 'you should be grateful we're the least racist. I say the least racist is still racist' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXLS2IzZSdg
4. No one forces companies to hire anyone, let alone 'based on the colour of their skin'. We know that diverse teams (diverse in all directions) perform better (https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter) because they bring more viewpoints to scrutinise decisions.
But is it still very common for people to think (often unintentionally) that 'merit' resides remarkably often in people who look/think/talk/behave/grew up like us. We have to scrutinise ourselves and actively try to learn from people with different experiences
1. You are welcome to argue it, please can you offer any evidence?
2. Here's one of many to support my point: across the board, candidates from minority backgrounds are much less likely to be selected for interview than the exact same application from a white applicant http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/?p=1299
(oh and 'in spite of relatively strong laws prohibiting discrimination on ethnic, racial and religious grounds, the level of discrimination is higher in Britain than in the other four countries')
So it looks like the meritocracy you describe is not in full effect.
This is a good read that covers the profession https://www.icaew.com/-/media/corporate/files/technical/research-and-aca...
Agree that in lots of areas, it is hard to see a 'privilege'. But for all those people, being white just means people have one less problem to face than their black/brown peers. It doesn't mean they have it easy.
This is true. But it is demonstrably easier to progress further and faster if you are white, male, middle-class background, able bodied etc.
It's not (just) about a few 'bad apples' determinedly discriminating against people they don't like (though they exist) or (just) about people not having been aware of the impact of their often thoughtless actions (though that happens a lot too); it's the cumulative effect of those and the systems/structures set up by people who don't face those challenges (often well meaning, but still) that prevent everyone reaching their potential
And if everyone can reach their potential, we have a richer (literally and metaphorically) and happier society. Win:win.
(and no one is vilifying white men as a class. we are all human)
this is not about you personally. And on a case by case basis you maybe as equitably minded as anyone.
But if you are saying that black/brown people, people with disabilities, women, gay people are treated equally in society as a whole, then I have some news for you...
If you agree there is a problem (and as you notice, there are inequalities in lots of dimensions), and you, as an employer, leader, maybe a parent, are in a position to do something about it, why not try it?
So if the board/leadership team is disproportionately white & male, that is simply because they are 'better' (ie more 'good') than everyone else? Hmmm...