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Registering a client for CT: the CT41G problem

24th Apr 2012
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Agents looking to register a new company for corporation tax will no longer have access to the official CT41G form, but will now be able to complete the task online.

AccountingWEB member b1lly originally posted the question “CT41G - Has this form been withdrawn?” on Any Answers after his colleague was told the form didn't exist anymore.

The post received a lot of attention in the community and for a week it remained a mystery as to where this information should be entered online.

Many complained that HMRC had failed to give prior notice of withdrawing the old style CT41G with no explanation as to why it was done.

Some members were helpful enough to provide third-party PDFs of the form, but bjackson0510 said this was not acceptable: “I am tempted to just submit a 64-8 for CT and ignore the CT41G form altogether, as there is no longer a clear way an agent can prepare a CT41G for a client using forms currently available directly from HMRC. Borrowing PDFs from third parties is not an acceptable way forward for agents!”

After a wide range of responses from regional offices, and HMRC asking internally for more guidance on the matter, it took AccountingWEB member 1796971 just one sentence to clear it all up:

“If you go to your own firm's HMRC Online page, at the top is the 'Register for HMRC taxes' and you complete the details there”.

bjackson0510 provided more detail: “I have just logged in using my agent details and clicked through 'Register for HMRC taxes' as suggested. This allows an agent to register a client for corporation tax. It leads to an online form requesting pretty much the same info that is requested on the printed CT41Gs. You can specify the date trading started along with the accounting period dates etc.

“I take back my earlier criticism!....but why haven't we been told about this facility? and why don't the tax office staff seem to know about it either?” he said.

Aprid added that when he spoke to HMRC they said they thought when you next get an authorisation code for online linkage to a CT case there will be a screen where agents enter company info like the CT41G. But he said: “HMRC could not 100% confirm this as they did not have access to the system!?”

Have you had any issues registering online with HMRC?

Replies (20)

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By Chris Wise
25th Apr 2012 09:09

CT41G  is often the first notification of the company UTR we receive, the new online registration requires the UTR to register. Isn't this going to be a bit chicken and egg? Or is there some new way of notifying the UTR at the time of registering with CH?

Either way in my experience we rarely have all the information and the client always needs to confirm various dates or references, so completing an online version sounds like a nightmare.

Does moving to electronic notification now mean the late registration penalty will be invoked more often?

 

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By djw090
25th Apr 2012 10:19

UTR

I agree with Chris. The CT41G is our notification of the UTR. It is always a pain when the client deals with the CT41G themselves as you then find you havn't got the UTR. So how is it going to be communicated? Will there be a letter to the registered office in place of the form?

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By Cloudcounter
25th Apr 2012 10:38

There is a letter

HMRC are now sending a letter to clients headed "information for new companies" and containing the UTR and reminding the new company of the need to notify commencement of trade

I always form new companies with our office as the registered address to make sure we get this, and transfer it to the clients' premises later on, if necessary.

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By Chris Wise
25th Apr 2012 10:52

Online Registration

I just had a quick shufy round the form, no easy task. It looks to me as if it is designed for the client to complete, there is an area called "add a delegate" which appears to relate to allowing agents to access the form.

I think this has been very badly thought out. I know from my own ex HMIT experience that the Revenue think agents and clients have clear communcation channels and the agent knows everything and is given all the information as soon as it is available. 15 years in practice tells me the opposite.

 

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Jennifer Adams
By Jennifer Adams
25th Apr 2012 11:54

Another problem ...

I submit that this problem (and similar ones in the past) has come about because whoever is deciding procedure at HMRC has never worked on 'this side of the desk'. Otherwise they would know that withdrawing CT41 without instructions or links or consultation will make things difficult.

Its good that we have accountingweb to vent our anger! I wonder... does anyone from HMRC Working Together read the posts?

But why are we surprised? Any accountant/tax adviser listening to the Budget automatically thought 'hold on'...when the 'granny tax' and 'pasty tax' was announced.

Along a similar vein - has anyone else noticed this....go onto direct gov at this link

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Nl1/Newsroom/DG_188740 

and look under 'What happens next'

... the text states that when a member of a deceased's family registers a death (this can now be done online) directgov automatically sends notification to HMRC. If that person was a client then you will find that that name is deleted from your list of clients and you have to reauthorise for the 'new' deceased client.

 

 

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By Cloudcounter
25th Apr 2012 12:32

Don't use it

I haven't looked at the form yet, but if it's useless or poorly designed there is no compulsion to use it, surely?  Just notify HMRC by letter with the basic information needed such as date of commencement and date of accounting periods.

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By BBK
25th Apr 2012 15:05

CT41G

Yes, I was told to do it online after I phoned HMRC but found I needed the UTR number which had not been sent by HMRC. They now have to send a letter with the UTR number shown.  This is efficiency for you!!

 

 

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By KH
25th Apr 2012 15:10

Spare CT41G template

If anyone requires a spare CT41G which you can fill out Adobe Acrobat, I can email you one ... I tend to be pretty anal[***] with regards hoarding forms.

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By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
25th Apr 2012 16:12

.
Thanks to the earlier post referred to in this article I have used the new procedure and its really easy now I know where to do it.

You just take the UTR number from the letter the client gets.

Less info is gathered, eg directors details are not requested.

8/10 for the form
0/10 for actually letting anyone know how to do it!

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By BigBadWolf
25th Apr 2012 16:12

Why fix something that aint broke?
Why on earth did HMRC think it would be a good idea to withdraw the CT41G?

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Replying to Adrian Pearson:
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By chatman
25th Apr 2012 17:24

Online v Paper

BigBadWolf wrote:
Why on earth did HMRC think it would be a good idea to withdraw the CT41G?

I understand the problems expressed above, but I much prefer filling in forms online than on paper, which I then have to post. I think moving things online is a good thing.

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Replying to tom123:
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By BigBadWolf
01st May 2012 17:18

lunatics running the asylum

chatman wrote:

BigBadWolf wrote:
Why on earth did HMRC think it would be a good idea to withdraw the CT41G?

I understand the problems expressed above, but I much prefer filling in forms online than on paper, which I then have to post. I think moving things online is a good thing.

Moving things online is fine - if the system can cope ... But HMRC systems are designed to be difficult!!!  A good example is the online 64-8, still involves pieces of paper (auth codes) being posted, and no PAYE or VAT office seems to be to see the online authorisations - and insist we file a paper 64-8 anyway!?!!!?!??!

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Replying to johnjenkins:
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By chatman
01st May 2012 17:35

Agree with BigBad Wolf

BigBadWolf wrote:
Moving things online is fine - if the system can cope ... But HMRC systems are designed to be difficult!!!  A good example is the online 64-8, still involves pieces of paper (auth codes) being posted, and no PAYE or VAT office seems to be to see the online authorisations - and insist we file a paper 64-8 anyway!?!!!?!??!

Yes, that is irritating. I claim to be the client as a matter of course when calling HMRC, even if I can see the client on the portal; saves a lot of hassle.

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Replying to johnjenkins:
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By chatman
01st May 2012 17:36

Online Authorisation

BigBadWolf wrote:
the online 64-8, still involves pieces of paper (auth codes) being posted

or not!

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By Chris Wise
25th Apr 2012 16:58

Why?
I suspect it reduces postage and unoess they are again printing them at the ther end saves staff costs too

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By nogammonsinanundoubledgame
26th Apr 2012 08:47

So now what are we supposed to do ...

... in the case of a body which is subject to CT (such as a club) which is not a company registered at Companies House and which has not yet been issued with a UTR by HMRC, the latter being as yet unaware of its existence (and never will be informed by Coy House as would be the case with a Ltd Coy)?

As I understand the position, we cannot do it online, because there is no UTR, and we cannot do it by CT41G because, er, it no longer exists.

With kind regards

Clint Westwood

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Replying to Tornado:
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By Malcolm Veall
30th Apr 2012 12:00

Director's information

They might as well not ask for the director's information - as they anyway invariably ignored, (for setting up personal self-assessment),  the directorship recorded on the CT41G.

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By EGo
30th Apr 2012 14:27

CT41G still exists

See the posting on the CIOT website, which seems to explain what is happening:

http://www.tax.org.uk/tax-policy/newsdesk/2012/Regs_tax_comp_online

 

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By Chris Wise
01st May 2012 10:08

you gotta love it

Just had a new client call about her new company's UTR. How does she get it? She has a new PAYE reference, but they can't tell her the UTR, she has tried to ring the CT district, but guess what, no answer. She says she has customers insisting they need it before they will pay (yes i know!).

So is the notification lost? Is there a delay in sending these letters out, lack of paper perhaps?

No UTR, so no 64-8 yet. such is life..

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Jennifer Adams
By Jennifer Adams
01st May 2012 12:49

Missing UTR's

This 'new' system starts with a UTR being sent to client on formation. That is where things are going wrong - my client and I are still waiting 3 weeks after formation of company. Invariably when the letter is eventually issued client puts it to one side etc etc.

I think Cloudcounter has the best idea.

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