Why won’t HMRC talk to you?
When HMRC refuses to talk to a tax agent the problem is usually a missing client authorisation to act, but there are numerous and confusing ways to secure this.
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If all authorisations end up being as quick as those currently done through the UK Property Return service, that'd be ideal.
But currently, there are multiple methods of authorisation, differing by tax type.
The only beasts that actively enjoy a grain-silo are rats.
I wonder what entities hover around tax-silos with a grin on their faces?
I am not going to keep commenting apart from the fact the current tax system appears to be in chaos with HMRC staff not daring to take any decisions in their own hands , taxpayers overwhelmed by a system thats bound to lead to errors as people just can't understand over complex rules and finally we have so many different rates I would defy any one to work out the true rate of tax. Agents are slowly being pushed out as HMRC don't seem to like them - don't listen to them and ignore valuable input. Very soon with MTDITSA HMRC will realise its the Agents that run the tax system unless of course Agents comply with HMRC's demands !! SEISS is a classic case of how the system is failing not only HMRC but taxpayer and agent alike.
A sensible, balanced and civil comment. I however, will simply say that they can't tell their arses from their elbows. I had SIX calls to HMRC yesterday, total consumption 225 minutes, trying to get some sense about their update buggering up a PAYE RTI system and locking it in 2015. Those you get fed to have limited knowledge, go off their page and you're screwed. Anyone who believes that this lunatic MTD bullshit is going to work, given the World's most batshit crazy tax system, really needs psychiatric help.
How about one single form with one box to tick which says ‘My agent is authorised to deal with anything and everything which comes under the remit of HMRC from this day forward until I confirm otherwise in writing. Exceptions are listed in the box below.’
The vast majority of our clients appointed us to act on their behalf entirely and do not understand why HMRC won’t cooperate.
Who will, and how can anyone gets to grips with this failing organisation?
DVLA are the same - people are waiting over a year for their license. NHS waiting lists. HMRC. Tried calling your council recently?
What is worse, in my opinion, is that they don't care and don't even try and hide it anymore. They just don't care. They have no pride, no work ethic.
I'm really depressed about all of this. How will we 'build back better' when only about 12% of the country is working, actual working? We are building back worse! Everywhere.
Depressing. Really depressing. I want to be the triage nurse in A&E and ask people who they work for so when someone from government/civil service/council turns up I can simply look through them as if they don't exist and continue to ignore them until they bleed out and die or get well. Or maybe give them google and them to self-diagnose and point them at the Boots outlet and tell them to bandage/medicate themselves.
Sorry. It's Friday. I should be happy. These articles suck the life out of me :(
Absolutely agree with you. There is no work ethic and no pride in what is done (to) for us.
No, I haven’t been in touch with the council. I have a non urgent issue to raise with them but I am gathering patience which I know I will need to overcome the fob off at stage 1.
Build back better = Let’s not care any more. As BoJo s dad said ‘nothing matters very much and some things don’t matter at all’. Who knew that the public sector would apply this to their whole working lives?
A good idea Open all Hours - the simple ones are usually the best. However it is too straightforward for the powers that be at HMRC so don't hold your breath waiting for it to be implemented. We will have to continue getting online authorisation for everything unless we use commercial software - but if we do then there is no access to submissions made to HMRC
A good idea Open all Hours - the simple ones are usually the best. However it is too straightforward for the powers that be at HMRC so don't hold your breath waiting for it to be implemented. We will have to continue getting online authorisation for everything unless we use commercial software - but if we do then there is no access to submissions made to HMRC
We will have to continue getting online authorisation for everything unless we use commercial software - but if we do then there is no access to submissions made to HMRC
MTD requires authorisation even if commercial software is used.
I am in dialogue with my MP's researcher. Their helpline to HMRC has been cut too. The message is the client write to their own MP so that they are made of the issues and then accountants don't look like idiots.
Nearly 200 years later and we still have deal with the Circumlocution Office, take for example the fact that even though my client authorises me to deal with his "taxes" HMRC will allow me to ask them for details of his employment income but they will not give me that information over the phone or by secure email, in fact they will not even send it to me in the post, they will send it to the client who has already asked me to deal with it all.
"HMRC is aware of the enormous scale and burden of the requirement to get reauthorised by all clients."
Great.....what are they going to do about it........nothing.
Knowing HMRC, they will spend ages determining the 'extra' work this will cause for agents and come up with a ridiculous figure like 20seconds per client, so in their eyes, it's not really onerous at all. Meanwhile, back in the real world ...
So HMRC solution to not processing a simple one page form, is to introduce a two page complex form.
Has anybody thought that it just may be better to employ enough people to meet the required capacity - after all that is what is required of us as accountants, as part of managing our professional responsibilities.
The new 64-8 is actually a 3-page form with instructions not to send the 3rd page to HMRC.
My latest bit of HMRC craziness is with MTD-VAT authorise your agent. Sent my client the link via my Agent Service Account, but then when they clicked the accept button, HMRC noticed that they had not submitted their first VAT return so it all fell apart. When I tried again, their system now refused to send me a link for my client.
Nevermind back to registering the old fashioned way via my HMRC portal, filled in all the boxes until I got to question about the box 5 figure on last submitted VAT return. Since I know this has to be the figure before MTD-VAT, but no before MTD-VAT figure was available, nor had a return been filed, so I put £0.00. Wrong answers, equally wrong was the determination figure provided by HMRC, so that system doesn't work either.
Client rang HMRC-VAT but they were totally unhelpful (quel surprise), so we have resorted to the old paper 64/8 which takes how long?????!!!
If by old you mean old fashioned and so the current version of the form, then you may still be unable to file their MTD return. The 64-8 VAT section now says:
Please note if you have signed up for Making Tax Digital
for VAT, this form cannot be used to authorise an agent to
manage your Making Tax Digital services.
We’ll continue to send correspondence to you rather than
to your agent but we can deal with your agent in writing or
by phone on specific matters.
If your agent wants to submit VAT returns online on your
behalf, you’ll need to authorise them through your business
tax account or ask your agent to begin authorisation
through their digital services. You may receive a letter
containing a PIN which you’ll need to pass to your agent to
complete authorisation
I think if you just do the 'tell your client to click this link' version (not that that helps in your case as you can't do it!) that covers all VAT including MTD, though the only clients I have spoken to HMRC about recently already had pre-MTD 64-8s so I'm now wondering. Otherwise that would mean two separate authorisations for VAT...
If HMRC cannot administer simple authorisations without making the process messy and complex then the MTD roll out will be a long winded confused process.
HMRC are in a confused and unorthodox state of turmoil and in a world of their own. The effort required by agents to deal with them is too often disproportionate to the gain from resolving a matter. Frontline staff are too often incapable of helping both by email and telephone and correspondence takes a very long time to respond to, if at all. So how can agents progress in certain matters? When will HMRC understand (care) that some issues need dealing with in real time not 6 months later, by which time compliance, penalty attracting, failures have been triggered and which then require more unnecessary work to deal with, and which is difficult to fee.
It appears that real time information are only a demand from HMRC and do not apply the other way around.
I pity people having to deal with SEISS, it fills me with rage the incompetence shown by HMRC, it tells me most of the people working there are absolute pants.
ZERO FORESIGHT
"The SEISS grants have completely fallen through the net of agent authorisation, as the system was set up for taxpayers to submit the SEISS claims themselves, with no agent access"
LACK OF PLANNING
"Apparently, no one considered the other end of the process"
CLASSIC AMATEUR HORSE BEFORE CART MISTAKE
" but it can’t discuss SEISS grant figures before the tax return is submitted"
HMRC POSTAL SERVICE BROKEN - TRY AGAIN
"This authorisation letter should be sent to: National Insurance Contributions and Employers Office, HMRC, BX9 1AN"
IRIS pulls the SEISS figure down from the HMRC hub as part of the tax return process so we can check against what the client told us.
IRIS pulls the SEISS figure down from the HMRC hub as part of the tax return process so we can check against what the client told us.
Does it? Ours doesn't... Am I missing a button? Retrieving HMRC data doesn't import it (for me at least) and 'Digital tax hub' gives me a blank screen after telling me the client isn't registered for MTD.
But they do!
After you’ve listened to a load of drivel about checking on the website, you are kept on hold for a minimum of 20 minutes (but realistically more like 40), then someone will at last answer. And then immediately, you get cut off.
So strictly speaking HMRC has answered the phone, you’ve just not actually managed to speak to anyone. And after a load of similar attempts, you tend to look for an alternative methods, which each come with their own issues.
I am sick of spending my time sorting out problems caused by HMRC’s failure to communicate or answer queries within a reasonable timeframe.
Why do HMRC persist in making something simple so complicated. A 64-8 to cover everything - perfect and easy! But no. We can't do that.
They always ignored the VAT and PAYE authorisation boxes on the old 64-8 anyway, even when they were all 100% perfectly filled in and VAT always wanted yet another authorisation form. Plus PAYE always wanted the FB12 as well.
When will HMRC wake up to the fact that we, as agents, get things done properly for our clients and yes, they cannot understand why we cannot do everything for them. The trust register and CGT reporting are a case in point where many people just can't cope with yet another online set up which doesn't work through their personal tax account. It is hard enough even to get clients to set up a personal tax account as they think they don't need one as we are agents. Round and round we go with layer after layer of bureaucracy and spending hours on the telephone trying to sort out the muddle and get the online trust register, CGT and ATED to work properly.
How the unrepresented cope I really don't know. Well actually I do. Many of them send in absolute rubbish and this will not be any better with MTD as they will probably just ignore the reminders.
Because they can. As Lord Vallance said: "So many see their value inextricably tied to complication. Their raison d'etre is complication. If tax was simple and intelligible we would have no need of them.
The previous version of the 64-8: HMRC had one piece of paper to remove from the envelope.
The new version of the 64-8: HMRC will have two pieces of paper to remove from the envelope.
The number of 64-8's correctly processed: will be reduced by approximately half.
Currently on hold
My second practice has an online agent account and can see all it's clients
I now need to get an agent services account as I have VAT and CGT requirements shortly
The agent services account does not recognise my practice so am now 13 minutes in on my second call trying to get find someone to help.
If they want agent services accounts and MTD for everything at least have an agent helpline to get the agents onboard!
What is laughable is the letters about MTD going to clients say
"If you have an accountant or agent who helps you with your tax affairs, they can help you move to MTD"!!! - that really is taking the @#**
1 h0ur 30, don't know how much more of there psychotic music I can take! I feel feel my grip on reality starting to slip...
Not a comment as such just to say "I can feel your pain".
If it helps in anyway, I dearly love my accountant. Even more so these days. You're not my accountant but here is a digital hug* :)
* I don't actually hug my accountant, just in case you were getting worried
I was just thinking - it's about time HMRC introduced another novelty to add to their previous whimsical ideas yet to come to any sort of fruition.
The Revenue's awareness of the ''..... enormous scale and burden of the requirement.......'' just about sums up the mindset. One step forward and two backwards in getting their administration and general service up to running.
It would be nice if we are to go through the rigmarole of filing new authorisations if HMRC stuck to its side of the deal.
The Public Accounts Committee recently noted that HMRC promised in 2009 to create a single record for every taxpayer (single customer account). Thirteen years of progress produces nought. Perhaps I am measuring in the wrong timescale and should measure in ages but that seemed to stop at the jet age; well let's try geological scales, any chance of getting it done before the Holocene period ceases? There again VP goes nuclear, who will give a monkey's about HMRC?
Cracked that one: I now attach "sign here" yellow stickers to every form I send out. It has massively improved the accuracy of signing, though still not 100%. I peel off the stickers when the form is returned and use them again. So they're well travelled.
Try registering as the VAT agent. On the old portal its usually Failed and on the MTD portal its the most user unfriendly website I have ever experienced. Obviously done by an IT guy in a silo high on something.
So for VAT back to paper forms. But oh they are not reflected on anything online. You could not make it up. What a circus.
I totally agree about the MTD portal. Every time it asks me for feedback I give it the lowest possible score and put "MTD is pure rubbish" in the comments and I commend this to others.
I am an IT guy. I have spent years designing and testing systems to ensure they work for well end users. We like to deliver things that people like to use.
I suggest that the problem is with HMRC managers who 1) issue incoherent guidance on what the system should do and/or 2) do not provide a realistic budget to do the work and/or c) change their minds part way through and/or d) are incapable of answering question or making decisions that inevitably crop up.
I hear the VAT section wanted a further question added:
The Officer processing this form will be thinking of a number between 1 and 1,000. What is it?
If the answer you give is wrong we will not be able to process the form and will write to you in about 9 months time to tell you this.
As advised my MP's researcher, please just write to your MP. It only needs to be done by email so not difficult.
As advised my MP's researcher, please just write to your MP. It only needs to be done by email so not difficult.