Save content
Have you found this content useful? Use the button above to save it to your profile.
Difficult phone call
iStock_fizkes_difficult_call

Why won’t HMRC talk to you? 

by

When HMRC refuses to talk to a tax agent the problem is usually a missing client authorisation to act, but there are numerous and confusing ways to secure this.

31st Mar 2022
Save content
Have you found this content useful? Use the button above to save it to your profile.

The most common way to authorise an agent to act is for a new client to complete a form 64-8, either online or on paper. 

HMRC has just released an updated version of the 64-8, which should be used for all new clients from now on.

The new 64-8 includes an important change for PAYE and CIS clients, as it asks for the agent’s government gateway identifier and PAYE agent ID code. Completing these fields allows HMRC to give the agent access to services that previously needed the “file by internet” form FB12 to be completed. 

The old version of the 64-8 will not be accepted as authorisation from new clients from some point in Autumn 2022 (date to be announced). Existing clients do not, for now, have to complete a fresh 64-8 but HMRC may require new authorisations from those existing clients at some point in the future. HMRC is aware of the enormous scale and burden of the requirement to get reauthorised by all clients.   

Rationalisation needed

The new form 64-8 is a small step towards rationalising the confusing mess of authorisation methods, which have not kept up with the HMRC online services that agents need to access on behalf of clients.  

In addition to the 64-8 and the FB12, there is a special authorisation form for ATED (ATED 1) and an online-only authorisation method for the capital gains tax UK residential property return. The online agent authorisation (OAA) service covers most HMRC services but the new client needs to have a UTR number in order to use that.

An article in the January 2021 issue of Agent Update listed all the ways an agent can be authorised to act.  

SEISS catch-22

The SEISS grants have completely fallen through the net of agent authorisation, as the system was set up for taxpayers to submit the SEISS claims themselves, with no agent access. 

Apparently, no one considered the other end of the process when the SEISS grants must be accurately reported on tax returns, often with the assistance of accountants. If the amount of SEISS grant income reported by the taxpayer doesn’t match what HMRC think was paid out, their tax return will be automatically amended by HMRC.   

Applying for the fourth and fifth SEISS grants was an even greater challenge for taxpayers as there was the tricky turnover test to pass. Some taxpayers will have typed in the wrong figures when applying or didn’t apply at all. In such cases the SEISS grant amount can be challenged.

As was recently revealed in its working with tax agents blog, HMRC won’t talk to tax agents about their clients’ SEISS grant applications, because the form 64-8 does not cover that system. HMRC can talk to agents about SEISS figures that have been reported on the tax return, but it can’t discuss SEISS grant figures before the tax return is submitted.

If you need to discuss the SEISS grant with HMRC before the tax return is filed, you will have to provide written consent from your client. This should include the client’s name, address, tax reference number (for example, UTR number) and signature, plus your name and address as the agent. 

This authorisation letter should be sent to: National Insurance Contributions and Employers Office, HMRC, BX9 1AN.

Tax silos 

One of the key problems with agent authorisation is that HMRC operates in tax silos; it is not customer focused. HMRC sees the “customer” as a payer of VAT, or income tax, or as tax credit claimant. It does not focus on the individual as someone who needs to access different services provided by HMRC and pay different taxes.

This approach is evidenced by the roll-out of MTD – which is tax by tax, not by organisation. Each taxpayer will be required to comply with similar, but slightly different, MTD filings, which must be submitted to different deadlines according to the tax reported.   

Some of this silo approach dates back to when different organisations dealt with different taxes: HM Customs and Excise collected VAT, customs and excise duties; the Inland Revenue dealt with most direct taxes such as income tax and corporation tax; while the Department of Social Security was responsible for national insurance.  

However, all these responsibilities have been concentrated in the hands of HMRC since 18 April 2005 or earlier. Some 17 years on from the HMCE and IR merger there can be little excuse for HMRC continuing the tax-silo approach.

Replies (56)

Please login or register to join the discussion.

By Michael Beaver
31st Mar 2022 16:08

With yet another authorisation coming for MTDfITSA too!

Thanks (3)
avatar
By Hometing
31st Mar 2022 16:25

If all authorisations end up being as quick as those currently done through the UK Property Return service, that'd be ideal.

But currently, there are multiple methods of authorisation, differing by tax type.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By Hugo Fair
31st Mar 2022 16:27

The only beasts that actively enjoy a grain-silo are rats.
I wonder what entities hover around tax-silos with a grin on their faces?

Thanks (7)
avatar
By GHarr497688
31st Mar 2022 16:30

I am not going to keep commenting apart from the fact the current tax system appears to be in chaos with HMRC staff not daring to take any decisions in their own hands , taxpayers overwhelmed by a system thats bound to lead to errors as people just can't understand over complex rules and finally we have so many different rates I would defy any one to work out the true rate of tax. Agents are slowly being pushed out as HMRC don't seem to like them - don't listen to them and ignore valuable input. Very soon with MTDITSA HMRC will realise its the Agents that run the tax system unless of course Agents comply with HMRC's demands !! SEISS is a classic case of how the system is failing not only HMRC but taxpayer and agent alike.

Thanks (12)
Replying to GHarr497688:
avatar
By Beef curtains
01st Apr 2022 09:11

A sensible, balanced and civil comment. I however, will simply say that they can't tell their arses from their elbows. I had SIX calls to HMRC yesterday, total consumption 225 minutes, trying to get some sense about their update buggering up a PAYE RTI system and locking it in 2015. Those you get fed to have limited knowledge, go off their page and you're screwed. Anyone who believes that this lunatic MTD bullshit is going to work, given the World's most batshit crazy tax system, really needs psychiatric help.

Thanks (10)
avatar
By Open all hours
31st Mar 2022 20:31

How about one single form with one box to tick which says ‘My agent is authorised to deal with anything and everything which comes under the remit of HMRC from this day forward until I confirm otherwise in writing. Exceptions are listed in the box below.’

The vast majority of our clients appointed us to act on their behalf entirely and do not understand why HMRC won’t cooperate.

Who will, and how can anyone gets to grips with this failing organisation?

Thanks (14)
Replying to Open all hours:
avatar
By flightdeck
01st Apr 2022 15:55

DVLA are the same - people are waiting over a year for their license. NHS waiting lists. HMRC. Tried calling your council recently?

What is worse, in my opinion, is that they don't care and don't even try and hide it anymore. They just don't care. They have no pride, no work ethic.

I'm really depressed about all of this. How will we 'build back better' when only about 12% of the country is working, actual working? We are building back worse! Everywhere.

Depressing. Really depressing. I want to be the triage nurse in A&E and ask people who they work for so when someone from government/civil service/council turns up I can simply look through them as if they don't exist and continue to ignore them until they bleed out and die or get well. Or maybe give them google and them to self-diagnose and point them at the Boots outlet and tell them to bandage/medicate themselves.

Sorry. It's Friday. I should be happy. These articles suck the life out of me :(

Thanks (4)
Replying to flightdeck:
avatar
By Open all hours
03rd Apr 2022 12:14

Absolutely agree with you. There is no work ethic and no pride in what is done (to) for us.
No, I haven’t been in touch with the council. I have a non urgent issue to raise with them but I am gathering patience which I know I will need to overcome the fob off at stage 1.
Build back better = Let’s not care any more. As BoJo s dad said ‘nothing matters very much and some things don’t matter at all’. Who knew that the public sector would apply this to their whole working lives?

Thanks (1)
Replying to Open all hours:
avatar
By Vallery Lee
05th Apr 2022 17:20

A good idea Open all Hours - the simple ones are usually the best. However it is too straightforward for the powers that be at HMRC so don't hold your breath waiting for it to be implemented. We will have to continue getting online authorisation for everything unless we use commercial software - but if we do then there is no access to submissions made to HMRC

Thanks (0)
Replying to Open all hours:
avatar
By Vallery Lee
05th Apr 2022 17:20

A good idea Open all Hours - the simple ones are usually the best. However it is too straightforward for the powers that be at HMRC so don't hold your breath waiting for it to be implemented. We will have to continue getting online authorisation for everything unless we use commercial software - but if we do then there is no access to submissions made to HMRC

Thanks (0)
Replying to Vallery Lee:
Morph
By kevinringer
07th Apr 2022 14:38

Vallery Lee wrote:

We will have to continue getting online authorisation for everything unless we use commercial software - but if we do then there is no access to submissions made to HMRC


MTD requires authorisation even if commercial software is used.
Thanks (0)
avatar
By Catherine Newman
31st Mar 2022 20:39

I am in dialogue with my MP's researcher. Their helpline to HMRC has been cut too. The message is the client write to their own MP so that they are made of the issues and then accountants don't look like idiots.

Thanks (2)
avatar
By Winnie Wiggleroom
01st Apr 2022 07:06

Nearly 200 years later and we still have deal with the Circumlocution Office, take for example the fact that even though my client authorises me to deal with his "taxes" HMRC will allow me to ask them for details of his employment income but they will not give me that information over the phone or by secure email, in fact they will not even send it to me in the post, they will send it to the client who has already asked me to deal with it all.

Thanks (5)
avatar
By North East Accountant
01st Apr 2022 08:35

"HMRC is aware of the enormous scale and burden of the requirement to get reauthorised by all clients."

Great.....what are they going to do about it........nothing.

Thanks (6)
Replying to North East Accountant:
avatar
By Brightster
01st Apr 2022 09:57

Knowing HMRC, they will spend ages determining the 'extra' work this will cause for agents and come up with a ridiculous figure like 20seconds per client, so in their eyes, it's not really onerous at all. Meanwhile, back in the real world ...

Thanks (5)
avatar
By JD
01st Apr 2022 10:09

So HMRC solution to not processing a simple one page form, is to introduce a two page complex form.

Has anybody thought that it just may be better to employ enough people to meet the required capacity - after all that is what is required of us as accountants, as part of managing our professional responsibilities.

Thanks (1)
Replying to JD:
Morph
By kevinringer
02nd Apr 2022 10:15

The new 64-8 is actually a 3-page form with instructions not to send the 3rd page to HMRC.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By Ben Alligin
01st Apr 2022 10:09

My latest bit of HMRC craziness is with MTD-VAT authorise your agent. Sent my client the link via my Agent Service Account, but then when they clicked the accept button, HMRC noticed that they had not submitted their first VAT return so it all fell apart. When I tried again, their system now refused to send me a link for my client.

Nevermind back to registering the old fashioned way via my HMRC portal, filled in all the boxes until I got to question about the box 5 figure on last submitted VAT return. Since I know this has to be the figure before MTD-VAT, but no before MTD-VAT figure was available, nor had a return been filed, so I put £0.00. Wrong answers, equally wrong was the determination figure provided by HMRC, so that system doesn't work either.

Client rang HMRC-VAT but they were totally unhelpful (quel surprise), so we have resorted to the old paper 64/8 which takes how long?????!!!

Thanks (0)
Replying to Ben Alligin:
Quack
By Constantly Confused
01st Apr 2022 14:36

If by old you mean old fashioned and so the current version of the form, then you may still be unable to file their MTD return. The 64-8 VAT section now says:

Please note if you have signed up for Making Tax Digital
for VAT, this form cannot be used to authorise an agent to
manage your Making Tax Digital services.
We’ll continue to send correspondence to you rather than
to your agent but we can deal with your agent in writing or
by phone on specific matters.
If your agent wants to submit VAT returns online on your
behalf, you’ll need to authorise them through your business
tax account or ask your agent to begin authorisation
through their digital services. You may receive a letter
containing a PIN which you’ll need to pass to your agent to
complete authorisation

I think if you just do the 'tell your client to click this link' version (not that that helps in your case as you can't do it!) that covers all VAT including MTD, though the only clients I have spoken to HMRC about recently already had pre-MTD 64-8s so I'm now wondering. Otherwise that would mean two separate authorisations for VAT...

Thanks (1)
avatar
By Ammie
01st Apr 2022 10:23

If HMRC cannot administer simple authorisations without making the process messy and complex then the MTD roll out will be a long winded confused process.

HMRC are in a confused and unorthodox state of turmoil and in a world of their own. The effort required by agents to deal with them is too often disproportionate to the gain from resolving a matter. Frontline staff are too often incapable of helping both by email and telephone and correspondence takes a very long time to respond to, if at all. So how can agents progress in certain matters? When will HMRC understand (care) that some issues need dealing with in real time not 6 months later, by which time compliance, penalty attracting, failures have been triggered and which then require more unnecessary work to deal with, and which is difficult to fee.

It appears that real time information are only a demand from HMRC and do not apply the other way around.

Thanks (6)
avatar
By nlb
01st Apr 2022 10:25

I pity people having to deal with SEISS, it fills me with rage the incompetence shown by HMRC, it tells me most of the people working there are absolute pants.

ZERO FORESIGHT

"The SEISS grants have completely fallen through the net of agent authorisation, as the system was set up for taxpayers to submit the SEISS claims themselves, with no agent access"

LACK OF PLANNING

"Apparently, no one considered the other end of the process"

CLASSIC AMATEUR HORSE BEFORE CART MISTAKE

" but it can’t discuss SEISS grant figures before the tax return is submitted"

HMRC POSTAL SERVICE BROKEN - TRY AGAIN

"This authorisation letter should be sent to: National Insurance Contributions and Employers Office, HMRC, BX9 1AN"

Thanks (1)
Replying to nlb:
joe
By Smokoe Joe
01st Apr 2022 14:00

IRIS pulls the SEISS figure down from the HMRC hub as part of the tax return process so we can check against what the client told us.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Smokoe Joe:
Quack
By Constantly Confused
01st Apr 2022 14:39

Smokoe Joe wrote:

IRIS pulls the SEISS figure down from the HMRC hub as part of the tax return process so we can check against what the client told us.

Does it? Ours doesn't... Am I missing a button? Retrieving HMRC data doesn't import it (for me at least) and 'Digital tax hub' gives me a blank screen after telling me the client isn't registered for MTD.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By rememberscarborough
01st Apr 2022 10:44

I thought this whole article was going to be about why HMRC never answer the phone....

Thanks (3)
Replying to rememberscarborough:
boxfile
By spilly
02nd Apr 2022 12:16

But they do!
After you’ve listened to a load of drivel about checking on the website, you are kept on hold for a minimum of 20 minutes (but realistically more like 40), then someone will at last answer. And then immediately, you get cut off.
So strictly speaking HMRC has answered the phone, you’ve just not actually managed to speak to anyone. And after a load of similar attempts, you tend to look for an alternative methods, which each come with their own issues.
I am sick of spending my time sorting out problems caused by HMRC’s failure to communicate or answer queries within a reasonable timeframe.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By Pam Moreland
01st Apr 2022 12:08

Why do HMRC persist in making something simple so complicated. A 64-8 to cover everything - perfect and easy! But no. We can't do that.
They always ignored the VAT and PAYE authorisation boxes on the old 64-8 anyway, even when they were all 100% perfectly filled in and VAT always wanted yet another authorisation form. Plus PAYE always wanted the FB12 as well.
When will HMRC wake up to the fact that we, as agents, get things done properly for our clients and yes, they cannot understand why we cannot do everything for them. The trust register and CGT reporting are a case in point where many people just can't cope with yet another online set up which doesn't work through their personal tax account. It is hard enough even to get clients to set up a personal tax account as they think they don't need one as we are agents. Round and round we go with layer after layer of bureaucracy and spending hours on the telephone trying to sort out the muddle and get the online trust register, CGT and ATED to work properly.
How the unrepresented cope I really don't know. Well actually I do. Many of them send in absolute rubbish and this will not be any better with MTD as they will probably just ignore the reminders.

Thanks (5)
Replying to Pam Moreland:
avatar
By Beef curtains
06th Apr 2022 10:35

Because they can. As Lord Vallance said: "So many see their value inextricably tied to complication. Their raison d'etre is complication. If tax was simple and intelligible we would have no need of them.

Thanks (0)
Intercity
By Mr Hankey
01st Apr 2022 13:11

The previous version of the 64-8: HMRC had one piece of paper to remove from the envelope.

The new version of the 64-8: HMRC will have two pieces of paper to remove from the envelope.

The number of 64-8's correctly processed: will be reduced by approximately half.

Thanks (1)
joe
By Smokoe Joe
01st Apr 2022 13:39

Currently on hold

My second practice has an online agent account and can see all it's clients

I now need to get an agent services account as I have VAT and CGT requirements shortly

The agent services account does not recognise my practice so am now 13 minutes in on my second call trying to get find someone to help.

If they want agent services accounts and MTD for everything at least have an agent helpline to get the agents onboard!

What is laughable is the letters about MTD going to clients say

"If you have an accountant or agent who helps you with your tax affairs, they can help you move to MTD"!!! - that really is taking the @#**

Thanks (2)
Replying to Smokoe Joe:
joe
By Smokoe Joe
01st Apr 2022 14:00

40 minutes now

Thanks (0)
Replying to Smokoe Joe:
joe
By Smokoe Joe
01st Apr 2022 14:30

1 hour 10, must be a record!

Thanks (0)
Replying to Smokoe Joe:
joe
By Smokoe Joe
01st Apr 2022 14:53

1 h0ur 30, don't know how much more of there psychotic music I can take! I feel feel my grip on reality starting to slip...

Thanks (0)
Replying to Smokoe Joe:
joe
By Smokoe Joe
01st Apr 2022 15:06

1 hr 45, they're coming to take me away ha ha

Thanks (0)
Replying to Smokoe Joe:
joe
By Smokoe Joe
01st Apr 2022 15:15

! hour 53 then it cuts me off!

Absolute effing shambles

Thanks (1)
Replying to Smokoe Joe:
avatar
By flightdeck
01st Apr 2022 16:00

Not a comment as such just to say "I can feel your pain".

If it helps in anyway, I dearly love my accountant. Even more so these days. You're not my accountant but here is a digital hug* :)

* I don't actually hug my accountant, just in case you were getting worried

Thanks (0)
avatar
By Mr J Andrews
01st Apr 2022 13:52

I was just thinking - it's about time HMRC introduced another novelty to add to their previous whimsical ideas yet to come to any sort of fruition.
The Revenue's awareness of the ''..... enormous scale and burden of the requirement.......'' just about sums up the mindset. One step forward and two backwards in getting their administration and general service up to running.

Thanks (1)
By mydoghasfleas
01st Apr 2022 14:09

It would be nice if we are to go through the rigmarole of filing new authorisations if HMRC stuck to its side of the deal.

The Public Accounts Committee recently noted that HMRC promised in 2009 to create a single record for every taxpayer (single customer account). Thirteen years of progress produces nought. Perhaps I am measuring in the wrong timescale and should measure in ages but that seemed to stop at the jet age; well let's try geological scales, any chance of getting it done before the Holocene period ceases? There again VP goes nuclear, who will give a monkey's about HMRC?

Thanks (1)
Quack
By Constantly Confused
01st Apr 2022 14:41

But will clients still sign the wrong box on the new 64-8? ;)

Thanks (0)
Replying to Constantly Confused:
Morph
By kevinringer
02nd Apr 2022 10:20

Cracked that one: I now attach "sign here" yellow stickers to every form I send out. It has massively improved the accuracy of signing, though still not 100%. I peel off the stickers when the form is returned and use them again. So they're well travelled.

Thanks (1)
avatar
By Rgab1947
01st Apr 2022 15:05

Try registering as the VAT agent. On the old portal its usually Failed and on the MTD portal its the most user unfriendly website I have ever experienced. Obviously done by an IT guy in a silo high on something.

So for VAT back to paper forms. But oh they are not reflected on anything online. You could not make it up. What a circus.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Rgab1947:
Chris M
By mr. mischief
01st Apr 2022 15:47

I totally agree about the MTD portal. Every time it asks me for feedback I give it the lowest possible score and put "MTD is pure rubbish" in the comments and I commend this to others.

Thanks (1)
Replying to mr. mischief:
Morph
By kevinringer
02nd Apr 2022 10:18

I do the same as does every other agent I know, yet HMRC claim the feedback is glowing.

Thanks (3)
Replying to kevinringer:
avatar
By Hugo Fair
02nd Apr 2022 12:54

I hadn't realised some of the feedback was sent in as pellets of uranium!

Thanks (1)
Replying to Hugo Fair:
Morph
By kevinringer
02nd Apr 2022 13:15

That explains it. Wouldn't be anything else.

Thanks (0)
Replying to kevinringer:
avatar
By Open all hours
03rd Apr 2022 12:19

That’s because they can’t spell ‘growing’.

Thanks (1)
Replying to kevinringer:
avatar
By Pam Moreland
04th Apr 2022 09:10

Taking publicity lessons from Putin no doubt.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Rgab1947:
avatar
By adjadj
20th Jan 2023 10:37

I am an IT guy. I have spent years designing and testing systems to ensure they work for well end users. We like to deliver things that people like to use.

I suggest that the problem is with HMRC managers who 1) issue incoherent guidance on what the system should do and/or 2) do not provide a realistic budget to do the work and/or c) change their minds part way through and/or d) are incapable of answering question or making decisions that inevitably crop up.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By AndyC555
01st Apr 2022 16:37

I hear the VAT section wanted a further question added:

The Officer processing this form will be thinking of a number between 1 and 1,000. What is it?

If the answer you give is wrong we will not be able to process the form and will write to you in about 9 months time to tell you this.

Thanks (1)
avatar
By Catherine Newman
01st Apr 2022 19:05

As advised my MP's researcher, please just write to your MP. It only needs to be done by email so not difficult.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By Catherine Newman
01st Apr 2022 19:05

As advised my MP's researcher, please just write to your MP. It only needs to be done by email so not difficult.

Thanks (0)

Pages