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Any Answers debate: Who's cheating the taxpayer?

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16th Apr 2014
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Nichola Ross Martin touched a nerve recently when she asked in Any Answers why HMRC was so reluctant to send out a list of PAYE payments.

Ross Martin made an error when paying HMRC through online banking. She accidentally left out part of a PAYE reference where amounts were allocated to the previous year and to ‘suspense’.

HMRC’s debt management and banking team then contacted her about alleged underpayments, but refused to provide a list of payments received. She was unable to see which payments were lost and work out why that had happened. 

On attempting to get in touch with both the debt management and banking team, and the PAYE team, she was passed back and forth.

The debt and banking team "would not admit" that she had overpaid 2013/14 because they tried to allocate her month one payment back to 2012/13. They then asked for the money for 2013/14.

"Why will HMRC not provide a schedule of the payments that they receive?" she asked. 

Ross Martin, a former editor of AccountingWEB, also flagged "an interesting side issue" issue with RTI, as her employer's online portal showed her PAYE totals as being wrong.

She also noticed that by looking at this, she can see what's allocated in and out of her PAYE. According to Ross-Martin it bore "no relation" to what the debt management and banking team were saying. 

"The 2013/14 payment which had been allocated to 2012/13 was apparently correctly allocated back to 2013/14 in December 2013... so the phone call from DMB today was a total waste of time as the PAYE office had it correct all the time."

'Holding' on to taxpayers' money

Other disgruntled AccountingWEB members shared similar experiences, where HMRC was less than forthcoming or helpful with their PAYE errors, queries or repayments.

Two "frustrated" members suggested lodging complaints with the small claims court in this scenario. One has a client that has mistakenly overpaid an amount of PAYE - but is finding communications to recover it from the Revenue a year on difficult. 

Other scenarios where members' clients have wanted to see payment statements include that of Southbankdelboy, who has a non computer-literate client. The client has fallen behind with his PAYE/NIC payments over the last few years. HMRC has not, after a request, to send a statement of account showing all liabilities, payments and interest.

The client wants to pay but cannot see what has been put through as charges and to make sure the any payments have been allocated correctly and as an agent, the member can't see a statement online.

Another similar issue in communication with the PAYE department came from ChrisDL, whose uncle had underpaid PAYE by a small amount, paid it into HMRC's PAYE bank account. But every three months, despite providing a letter saying it was paid in and details of the transaction, receives emails from HMRC demanding the money.

Many more members came on board to share their experiences, saying they were "frustrated" at in some cases, the lack of response, and in others, simply the ability not to see payments information in the agent's view. 

Update: 

HMRC has replied to AccountingWEB with their official response to the situation: 

A spokesperson said:

"Routine provision of PAYE payment schedules stopped several years ago, bringing PAYE into line with other taxes, because it was not sustainable to continue due to an increasing number of requests.

"This change in approach was introduced in April 2011 and announced through Employer Bulletin Issue 38 (page 21) and subsequently incorporated into our guidance (DMBM520287), which can be accessed on the HMRC website at which is available to customers at DMBM520287, which can be accessed at: debt and return pursuit: PAYE: payment schedule requests: background." 

Guidance provided by HMRC included: 

  • Customers are required to maintain their own records from which relevant information can be extracted
  • Additionally, the Business Tax Dashboard was introduced for the use of customers and presented another means for them to find what payments had been received and how these were allocated
  • Using these two sources resolves the majority of issues, but where exceptionally this doesn’t and a customer needs help with locating a limited number of payments, then the Revenue will provide assistance.

Have you had similar experiences with the Revenue? Comment below and let us know.

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Replies (92)

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Replying to pepegracia:
Nichola Ross Martin
By Nichola Ross Martin
25th Apr 2014 18:16

Ahem, excuse me?

Red1960 I don't know why you need to ruin it all and throw in a crabby comment! The joys of forums - hey, lets all be rude when we post anonymously. Thanks mate. Who are you?

I didn't write this piece - so I can't help the fact that so many people have responded. I've been in practice for 29 years, so of course I have seen all manner of things. Nothing wrong for publicising these practices in any case - lets see a copy of the letter from Lyn Homer?  This IS topical as HMRC is seeking new powers to extract money from people's bank accounts.

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By bainbridgelewis
16th Apr 2014 17:16

HMRC refusing to pay refund

I have a client that was previously employed and then started his own company, as he is now earning a lot less there is a PAYE/NI refund due of around £600. HMRC are refusing to refund this money saying it should be set against future liabilities. I have pointed out that he is being paid at a level where there are no future liabilities but they are still refusing the refund. This is ridiculous if any of us were dealing with a company that refused to repay overpayments to their customers surely we would be reporting them under the anti-money laundering regulations!

 

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7om
By Tom 7000
16th Apr 2014 17:30

The answer

When they dont refund something thats been over paid or you need info. Write and ask the procedure to attend a tribunal to sort it out...surprisingly you get an answer by return ;)

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By Ramisis
16th Apr 2014 18:18

HMRC would never pass an MOT Test.

If a car was as faulty as HMRC you would scrap it.

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By Jekyll and Hyde
16th Apr 2014 18:55

as frustrated as everyone else is......
..... I would say that HMRC are doing a good job based on their employers criteria.

For me HMRC are not the problem here but the Establishment as a whole and our governments view on how to treat it's people.

HMRC are an easy target and so are the police when it comes to other aspects of society.

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Replying to bernard michael:
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By bainbridgelewis
17th Apr 2014 10:52

I agree with you Jekyll and Hyde it is always the staff of these poorly run underfunded organisations that get it in the neck but it is very frustrating for accountants and their clients. Imagine the poor people who try and deal with them without the help of an accountant!

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Sarah Douglas - HouseTree Business Ltd
By sarah douglas
17th Apr 2014 13:01

HMRC always reminds me of the comedy

The computer says no.

" Helpline sorry I am not paid to think. "  The best one we got was for a client, you have not contacted us after us sending 25 recorded delivered letters and over 30 phone calls .  Then they  told us we can not post anymore they do not accept mail. Then we asked if we could have a surname of the person we were talking to , to be told they cannot give out the surname.  So we then told them we have no idea who were talking to and they could write to us for the client.   Surprise no letter.  

HMRC are the same as factors chasing for payment and are extremely rude with it. The sooner it is disbanded the better the HMRC is not fit for purpose.  

 

This excludes the few decent staff left in the HMRC it must be so demoralising working for the HMRC

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By doctorwho
16th Apr 2014 21:38

How easily...
I am shocked at the clarification given by HMRC that

"the Business Tax Dashboard was introduced for the use of customers and presented another means for them to find what payments had been received and how these were allocated."

INFACT,

Whenever there is an overpayment in any tax year, the PAYE payments made in that specific tax year will never be shown by HMRC online services. Never !!! So what's this??? then HMRC send the client a letter to ask WHY an overpayment was made and ask for the detailed breakdown of the liabilities and the payments ..... AT THE SAME TIME, HMRC Online Services keep the payment schedule online "NOT AVAILABLE"..... Petty

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By Isla
16th Apr 2014 23:11

HMRC

I find their general lack of any comprehension of the real world that the rest of us live in increasingly impossible to deal with.  They contribute greatly to my ongoing need for blood pressure medication.

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By Anthony G Thorne
17th Apr 2014 09:13

HMRC DMU & DPU

Having had experience of dealing with HMRC over the matters noted in the above comments I would suggest that the Revenue fails to keep proper books and records.  If they maintained a ledger account for each tax payer rather than having this fetish of allocation also when they split payments it is sometimes impossible to see were monies have been put.

 

I have written on behalf of clients to DMU providing details of what is wrong wit their records which they total fail to deal with ad then send further letters saying that they have not had a reply to their previous correspondence which is blatant lie.  I have addressed correspondence personally to J Brackenberry who has never replied and I was being to thing was a virtual person only to find out recently is actually Mrs J Brackenberry but seems she has difficulty in replying to letters.  I write a. because I have a record of what is said and b. because I do not have the time to hold on the phone for an hour to find I have to phone someone else.

 

With regards the comment about disclosure to an unauthorised third party the HMRC Data Protection Unit have advised me that this is a breach of the Commissioner for Revenue and Customs Act 2005 s18 and can be treated as a criminal offence.

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By Kazmc
17th Apr 2014 09:29

Snap!

We are feeling ever increasing frustration with HMRC to the point of not wanting any contact with them at all, which of course is impossible!

We have registered a bulk of our clients on the Government Gateway and have their passwords so we can at least see their dashboard which has helped enormously, however it doesn't help that the figures are dubious to say the least.

I haven't read all the previous posts but just wanted to add to the general consensus that HMRC are a complete and utter joke and make our jobs unnecessarily more stressful than need be....

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By alancow.harveysmith.co.uk
17th Apr 2014 09:56

My own experience
I had various underpayment notices recently. Each notice showed a different amount. I knew I was up to date and ignored their demands. Eventually I got a visit and sat down with a very nice lady trying to collect the debt. I explained that as far as I was aware, I was up to date and asked why I was receiving demands for different amounts. She went through my records and theirs, called back to the office. I could hear the conversation and heard that I had underpaid for 2012/13. The call continued and I then heard that I had overpaid for the same amount for 2011/12. No debt due. But why did I only receive notices of underpayment and no notices of overpayment. Very cheeky! The collector apologised and left, after I mentioned that she had spent 45 minutes with me trying to resolve an issue of their own doing. An invoice will follow.

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By Mitch
17th Apr 2014 11:02

AAM Issue Resolution Service

Has anyone used this service to try and get PAYE overpayment issue resolved?

I have been told that they have significant clout and can help with any "Client Specific" problem as long as an official complaint hasn't been made. You do need to register with the AAM service first.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/agents/aam.htm

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David Ross
By davidross
17th Apr 2014 12:49

I agree

Red1960 wrote:

It’s condescending and some what irritating of Accountancy Web to suggest that in some way it’s taken the efforts Ms Martin to bring this to light.

.......... with every respect to Nichola, I know I am not alone in having complained here about all this for several years.

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By rc.falconer
17th Apr 2014 13:44

Contact MPs

With all of the numerous examples of problems the profession needs to contact MPs and government minister who can dop something about it if they feel under enough pressure.

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By DCaine
17th Apr 2014 17:20

Same here

I spent some 18 months trying to get over £1,000 back for a client.  HMRC seemed to want the client to prove they have overpaid even though their letter agreed that he had and how much it was!  They also asked for a reason why, I guess 'there was a cockup!' is something they don't understand, we all make mistakes, in this case the previous accountant had misunderstood the client's instruction regarding some pay increases and put through too much, which only became evident when the client queried the big increase in PAYE for the quarter having already paid it!

When I asked them to tell me where the legislation or their own internal rules required the tax payer to provide evidence and explanations to this degree I got no response.  No doubt many of the staff there are under pressure and under trained but never the less taxpayers' money is being spend on a very poor service.

It seems to me that since PAYE had been centralised, they make up their own rules.  It almost felt as though they wanted me to give up so that they could keep the overpayment!   Eventually got the tax repaid but they still owe £250 by my reckoning as they messed up the rebate allocations. I was going to embark on the complaints procedure - request internal review, 2nd review then go to Adjudicator if need be but I think I have left it too long now.

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By the_Poacher
19th Apr 2014 11:15

Too few staff and poor IT
It seems that HMRC are hampered by a lack of staff and very poor IT. Every new release brings with it a serious of very basic flaws and seemingly even simple IT changes cost vast amounts. So they have to rain demand for their services in any way they can. I guess the taxpayer gets the services they pay for

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By johnster
19th Apr 2014 11:33

P35D

The overpayment is due to a monthly payment which do not match our records.                                    One day they might even get the grammar correct too, although I sincerely doubt it. They have difficulty enough in signing letters, let alone anything else.

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By Peter Tucker
19th Apr 2014 12:18

Trouble with Payments & RTI ?

There are apparently several issues with the way in which HMRC determine if Payroll payments have been made correctly. Some of the beliefs which have been expressed by HMRC in the development of RTI were that Employers / Agents were withholding PAYE Income Tax and NIC's from payment in order to deal with cash flow issues.

The logic was that as PAYE was only formally balanced once a year, as long as the annual payment due was met by 5th April, the Treasury could be missing out on in year payments. Unfortunately, as with the claims of Employers providing "dirty data", HMRC were unable to provide any solid statistical evidence to support this claim, but as many have noted, failure to prove a theory does not always inhibit HMRC senior management.

The various PAYE & payroll publications have been suggesting that any correspondence from HMRC Debt Management regarding an allegation of underpayment of PAYE Income Tax etc. should be dealt with by immediately reporting the matter to the local Member of Parliament and copied to Ms Homer at 100 Parliament Street, London and a second copy to Mr D Alexander, c/o The House of Commons.

This may seem to be a rather heavy handed way of dealing with HMRC, but it has been pointed out that individual mutterings achieve nothing and as HMRC is a non-ministerial Department, the more members of Parliament are advised of the operational behaviour of HMRC, the more chance there is that a change may be brought about. No guarantees, but perhaps worth a try, rather than arguing with HMRC Debt Management teams?

 

 

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By gilderda
23rd Apr 2014 16:54

If you went into a shop...

...and they took twice as much as they meant to for something you bought, then you would expect to get your money back.

If the shop refused to refund you, then I'm pretty sure you would have recourse under the law to sue the backsides off them.

The current HMRC assumption that your money is their money until such point as they deem you fit to get it back is morally and legally a nonsense. It is only going to get worse under the proposed new arrangements for avoidance schemes where the tax has to be paid over until the courts say you can have it back.

If HMRC are slow repaying a few hundred pounds of PAYE that has been overpaid, imagine how long it is going to take to get seven figure sums that have been under dispute back off them if you are successful in the courts.

The whole approach smacks of a politically driven one, with the Exchequer desperate to balance the books by hanging on to its subjects cash for as long as it possibly can, irrespective of whether it is actually entitled to it or not.

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By tony metcalf
23rd Apr 2014 17:17

Money Laundering Offence?

If a client gets paid twice by a customer and writes that amount off in their records, without making any effort to repay it, I am reasonably certain that is reportable under the money laundering regulations.

Surely if HMRC have a refund due to our client and refuse to refund it, they are guilty of the same offence and should be reported. Then maybe HMRC will have to prove why they think the over payment in their records isn't due rather than the other way around?

 

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Replying to GHarr497688:
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By The Black Knight
24th Apr 2014 10:42

Nice try

tony metcalf wrote:

If a client gets paid twice by a customer and writes that amount off in their records, without making any effort to repay it, I am reasonably certain that is reportable under the money laundering regulations.

Surely if HMRC have a refund due to our client and refuse to refund it, they are guilty of the same offence and should be reported. Then maybe HMRC will have to prove why they think the over payment in their records isn't due rather than the other way around?

 

Nice Try

But I think

1, HMRC are above the Law (Her Majesties R&C)

and

2, Can you see the money laundering report still going to the bin but via the shredder.

 

You could take a Telegraph reporter out to lunch as these are the true Guardians of our Times

 

 

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By johnjenkins
24th Apr 2014 09:24

Reprt it

you may well do, but you bet your bottom dollar that it won't go any further. Just wait till they have carte blanche to take money out of your account. The Swiss will do a roaring trade.

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John Stokdyk, AccountingWEB head of insight
By John Stokdyk
24th Apr 2014 10:15

Why have a go at us?

@davidross I can understand your frustrations, but what grounds do you have for sniping at the messenger?

I've already PM'd @Red1960 to point out that the original article says Nichola's Any Answers rant "touched a nerve" among other AccountingWEB members. At no point did she or we claim any leadership on this issue and the article draws on other previous situations where members shared similar experiences. 

Far from being condescending, those of us on the site who do not work as tax advisers do not always have first hand experience of the exasperations of dealing with HMRC. But when something seems to catch hold among members, we try our best to bring it forward so that everyone can offer their own observations and get a wider picture of the issue at hand.

Do please continue to have your say, but it might help if you could appreciate what we are trying to do rather than criticising Nichola and us unfairly.

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By Peter Tucker
24th Apr 2014 18:30

And As If That Wasn't Enough !!

Take a look at this & consider getting as many signatures as possible?https://secure.38degrees.org.uk/hmrc-petition

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David Ross
By davidross
25th Apr 2014 11:30

Not shooting the messenger

John

As you know it was Red1960 wot started this side issue !

But I have re-read the header article on this thread and it does not make the point that some of us have been having these problems (and complaining about them) for years. The article makes it look as if Nichola has stumbled across something.

Not having a go, just putting the record straight. It is good that this subject continues to be aired on this site.

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By The Black Knight
25th Apr 2014 18:25

I loves ya Nichola! xx

Accountants have always been a bit bitchy it's hard wired into the stereotype personality or lack of it!

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Nichola Ross Martin
By Nichola Ross Martin
25th Apr 2014 18:43

Thanks Black Knight

Its an internet thing, having a pseudonyms seems to bring out a lot of bad in some folk. I've posted in my own name for years; its quite liberating.

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David Ross
By davidross
27th Apr 2014 10:42

Using own name

I do agree about this. I am just starting a forum of my own and the software does not seem to allow the moderator to prevent pseudonyms. My local paper's (Bournemouth Echo) comments are full of stupid abuse which would not happen if people had to stand out in the open

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By The Black Knight
28th Apr 2014 10:53

On the other hand

It does allow you to be frank about your views that you would not necessarily be able to do in real life.

1, for fear of reprisal

2, someone assuming a comment was about their circumstances.

For example the public and private differences of expression on money laundering matters and tax evasion.

It does therefore allow free speech which is very important.

I think disingenuous comments are seen for what they are and largely ignored.

I am also not sure whether real names would prevent such remarks, You only have to look at the local "spotted in" pages on facebook to see that.

Peoples businesses are regularly defamed for quite petty reasons. The local Chinese was, according to these idiots, selling cat meat.

It would take a brave person to stand up against the baying Mob?

Unfortunately this behaviour is rife in accountancy land. It prevents people learning or even asking a question. It also prevents people for standing up for what is right too.

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By tedbuck
28th Apr 2014 11:16

Difficulties with HMRC

I still think that the best thing is to write to Gerge Osborne and complain.

Yes, I doubt that he reads the letters but someone does because you get a reply and sometimes the problem is sorted.

The main thing surely is to let 'them' (the faceless civil,supposedly, servants) know that there are a lot of angry people out there.

If they get enough aggravation they will do something just to get peace and quiet.

If you don't like that course of action write to HMRC compalints department who generally do react usefully.

Being a pain in the backside works - look at UKIP!

Tedbuck

 

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Nichola Ross Martin
By Nichola Ross Martin
28th Apr 2014 11:51

But is the dashboard payments function any good?

I think that the dashboard could be sorted out in a different way, for example, why not show the "suspense" ledger for each taxpayer so we can see, if an error is made, what payments are credited there and then we can see where HMRC allocates them to.

It would be so helpful if we could see what HMRC can see.

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By CBPTS
28th Apr 2014 13:27

This is the future

where everything has to be done 'in real time'. Then if you make a mistake it will be treated as 'correct', in other words there must have been a reason for you making the payment (no one pays in error) which HMRC sees as you believing that you owed the tax and therefore there can be no refund (you may have failed to make the correct FPS or if older a P35). Do not take holidays or be a day late or have client's with other things to do than be ready to submit in 'real time'. I have always said that after 40 years plus in this business the Revenue would make me redundant, well a flat rate of tax payable by everyone ever week/month/whatever is the cheapest way with no allowances or reliefs. This would be based on what you have in the bank (in real time) and be accessible by HMRC because by then cash would have been banned by the Gov. of the day. What was that book called, 19.......?

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By jholmes
28th Apr 2014 15:14

We need to talk about Kevin....

I have just had the pleasure of Kevin at HMRC. HMRC have sent our FPS/EPS's off for review with there specialist team, why? because on a number of months they dont match what we sent in. I spoke to a lovely lady who was very helpful and confirmed that they were still looking in to it (original issue raised by me in November BTW) and could not give me a time frame for it being sorted, but to keep doing as i had.

I then raised the issue of payments being allocated to the previous year, to which she responded i need to go through to the payments allocation team. Here is where we meet the bonnie Kevin!

Kevin informs me that in order to get the payments reallocated i need to tell him which payments have been mis-allocated.

I explain that i cannot do that as the payments have not been allocated cleanly (i.e. part to one part to another) and that since the over payment was made, the 12/13 year has not been accessable on the dashboard. To be able to tell him how they have been allocated i would need to see it.

Kevin then informed me that he cannot reallocate the payments without me being able to tell him why they have been allocated to the previous year. I explain that i cant tell him that because i dont know why HMRC have allocated them there, as i have no control over how HMRC operate (mores the pity). 

I tried to explain that it was physically impossible for me to reconcile what had happened, if they werent prepared to show me how they had allocated the payments. He said he couldnt allocate the payments unless i could tell him how they had been allocated.

To which we went round in circles a few times!!

Apparently I am now going to have to write to explain to the revenue why there is a £14k over payment in 12/13 (whilst there is a £14k under payment 13/14 year) with out being sarcastic and flippant! Im not sure its going to happen!

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By sammerchant
29th Apr 2014 09:10

HMRC & PAYE

Does ANYONE from HMRC read these postings? They really, really should. It might give them the teeniest clue that it is they who should amend their ways, not the taxpayer or their advisers.

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
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By the_Poacher
03rd May 2014 14:48

They are powerless
A lot of hmrc staff are totally fed up with the destruction of their organisation but with so many more job cuts on the horizon they are too scared of reprisals to speak out

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By johnjenkins
29th Apr 2014 09:38

@sammerchant

Nobody cares anymore. We know whatever we say will just go over heads. there isn't a politician that has the guts to do anything. That is why the EU is stagnant. That is why Putin has been allowed to get away with it. This is how it will be for the foreseeable future.

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Nichola Ross Martin
By Nichola Ross Martin
29th Apr 2014 17:19

Noting that HMRC have just launched a new Agent DMB helpline

maybe that might help...a little, but on my reckoning until we can see how HMRC accounts for our payments we are stuffed.

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By tony metcalf
30th Apr 2014 10:50

Professional Bodies

Perhaps we should all start bombarding our professional bodies with these issues. Then maybe they will allocate someone to bring pressure to bear on Government and the HMRC to sort out these issues instead of pouring over the latest FRS which frankly I couldn't care less about.

HMRC want more and more powers without robust rights of appeal. Some of it is being dressed up as combating anti-avoidance, but you can bet the farm on someone like Kevin spotting that you can apply it elsewhere. If they are going to use a right to request documents as a way of preventing tax repayments being made they aren't going to worry about bending the tax avoidance rules.

With them wanting to dip into our bank accounts these are worrying times.

 

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Nichola Ross Martin
By Nichola Ross Martin
30th Apr 2014 15:17

Pro Bodies - on the case!

In passing, I note that with a Corporation tax overpayment it take HMRC just a few days to sends me a summary and it also very helpfully tells me "a payable order is being sent to the person nominated to receive it".

No asking "Why was there was an overpayment?" and keeping it. How very perplexing.

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By The Black Knight
30th Apr 2014 15:36

fits and starts

It comes in Fits and starts but HMRC will try and delay any tax repayment.

We have had delayed CIS when waiting for this money to pay the corporation tax bill.

Delayed refunds of VAT when a 652 submitted.

Oddly though we had a repayment on a client's current year return when the previous returns and penalties were outstanding. He never completed the earlier years returns never paid our bill and was never bothered by HMRC for outstanding tax and returns or penalties.

The persistently errant seem to receive beneficial treatment and if you are a tax evader you can join their Gold Club criminal assistance service.

 

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By frankdavid
03rd May 2014 12:55

HMRC short staffed.............we suffer

 

If we are ill or short staffed.................client gets a penalty

 

Thank god I'm retiring next year

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