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New VAT portal leads down ‘rabbit hole of pain’

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The way agents can register their clients for VAT online has been updated, but in doing so HMRC has launched a process that is inherently broken.

16th Aug 2022
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HMRC updated the way agents can register their clients for VAT online from 1 August 2022, stating that the new process had been tested by “industry”. However that industry clearly wasn’t accountancy, because the process is poor and confusing. The objective was to improve VAT registrations, making them quicker to apply for and for HMRC to process.

HMRC published no guidance or explanations, either prior to or just after the launch, and this has left tax agents struggling with a poor user interface and glitches that have meant longer times are needed to submit an application. Not so simple after all.

The big issue 

To use the new VAT registration online process, the agent must use their Making Tax Digital Agent Services Account (MTD-ASA) government gateway details. The problem with this is that once logged into the ASA, there is no option to register a client for VAT, the ASA only allows you to file VAT returns for those clients who have subscribed to MTD.

If the agent uses their “old” ASA, there is an option to register a client for VAT, but that takes you down a rabbit hole of pain. Because if you enter the VAT registration pages via your “old” ASA, then the screens will require the agent to identify themselves by providing their name, date of birth and national insurance number. The agent will also have to supply evidence to support these answers, such as passport or driving licence.

The solution

Before logging in, you should use this link titled “VAT registration applications, exceptions and changes”. The first menu option on this page is “Use online services to apply for VAT registration or to change your VAT registration details”.

Once you click on that, you are taken to the familiar government gateway login page and you login using your MTD ASA credentials. Doing it this way, you are then taken to the VAT registration pages but this time, it only asks for your name and accountancy practice name.

Other issues yet to be resolved 

This fully tested service has a number of inherent issues which one hopes HMRC will look to resolve very quickly. The VAT Practitioners Group (VPG) has been leading the discussions with HMRC on a number of other issues.

If your client is an “intending trader” – which is usually a corporate spin-off that isn’t planning on making any sales for a while, such as a property developer – HMRC appear to have an algorithm that denies registration if the intending trader isn’t intending to trade for at least three months from date of registration. This is not what the UK VAT legislation states, but is what HMRC appear to be doing.

There is an ability to save your progress and return to it later. However, your answers are only stored for seven days (on the previous online process it was 30 days). In my own experience, I’ve also noted that it does not remember all of your answers. It remembers yes/no buttons but any free-form fields it does not. Your autocomplete function in your browser can be useful here but over time, you’ll have hundreds of autocomplete responses to choose from.

Backwards step

Also, where HMRC requires a passport (if there’s an overseas director) or an option to tax form, these cannot be submitted via the online process and instead have to be emailed or posted once you have submitted the registration and obtained a reference number. The old process allowed you to upload documents, so yet another backwards step.

One final and serious issue is that where the client is overseas/non-UK, HMRC requires the tax agent to act as a tax representative. A tax representative has joint and several liability for any VAT owed by the taxpayer. It is rare that any accountant would act as tax representative for any business, let alone an overseas one, but do be very careful ticking any boxes that make the practice liable for the clients inability to pay their VAT. I presume this is a coding error on the website, but if it is deliberate, it is against the law to force the tax agent to be a tax representative, although HMRC would no doubt love to have tax agents on the hook for HMRC’s VAT loss.

Final thought

It is ridiculous that HMRC has launched an online process that is inherently broken. Worse, HMRC has quickly recognised some of these issues but rather than publicise these changes on gov.uk it has agreed some interim guidance, which has been published by the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales (ICAEW) and the Chartered Institute of Taxation (CIOT) with a recent update including draft instructions on how to circumvent the agents having to give their personal details away to HMRC.

It feels like another attempt by HMRC to cut the tax agent out of the HMRC/taxpayer relationship. While many agents will be members of ICAEW or CIOT, it isn’t logical to have such important guidance on registering for VAT hidden away on a website for a niche group of people, rather than on the more obvious place, the HMRC website under their “How to register for VAT” sections.

 

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Replies (81)

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By Open all hours
16th Aug 2022 12:30

More of the same. Please can HMRC just accept that we agents are sorry for whatever it is that has so obviously upset them.
And, please can we just reset the clock and be allowed to act on behalf of our clients in all aspects of whichever taxes our clients (HMRC customer) request?
In the end, whether HMRC believe this or not we are useful in efficiently administering the tax system.

Thanks (25)
By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
16th Aug 2022 12:34

Thanks Jason, that is really useful.

its depressing how every 'new' iteration of such software seems to be worse than the last one. There seems to be no learning at HMRC side, and precious little testing.

The "only works if you launch from a certainly place" functionality is maddening. Why there is not a single log in, with a list of services as any other website in the world is designed is bonkers. Instead we must find a webpage (which invariably is moved or renamed so you cant even bookmark) and then scroll down it, to find a link which may or many not work. This is not progress or efficient.

Thanks (22)
Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
VAT
By Jason Croke
16th Aug 2022 13:14

The user interface is just horrendous....even if just trying to file an MTD VAT return, there is no big buttons to click on, you have to scroll down a menu page and expand the MTD section and then click on file a return, no chance of dong this on your phone or tablet.

We had the same issue with registering for postponed VAT and for CDS, there was no one place, you had to read through reams of pages and look for obscure links, some which went down rabbit holes with dead-ends. it is where the Brace for Brexit series of articles was born from, because all the information was there, but scattered across various HMRC web pages.

The latest update from HMRC is that they are working on adding a VAT registration function to the ASA. It is bonkers, should have been there before launching this service. HMRC have forced agents to migrate to the MTD Agent Services Account and then HMRC remove all functionality from the ASA other than filing returns.

I cannot see an average self-employed person or sole trader coping with MTD ITSA if they have to navigate the same maze as me, and I partially know what I'm doing!

Thanks (10)
Replying to Jason Croke:
By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
16th Aug 2022 13:50

@Jason quite.

Any sensible administration would have kept the old route open, launched the new route and then in perhaps 12-24 months closed the old one once the new route is demonstratively better than the old one and any bugs not picked up in extensive user testing are fixed. A simple test would be to see which most users are on.

Or in other words, keep the piggin old route open until the new route IS better.

Launching a half baked system without warning or user testing it always going to go badly. HMRC simply cant run IT projects any more.

Thanks (8)
Replying to Jason Croke:
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By JacquiMBurns
19th Oct 2022 14:26

Don't mention accessing the CDS PLEASEEEEE. It has taken me over a month to do so with the various government departments telling me it is all working fine yet it keeps coming up with 'your subscription has failed'. Then being asked to send in screenshots of my answers numerous times. THEN I got an email saying it had been approved when I started the process back in early September. So why did I not receive notification of this within 2 hours or 5 days if posted? They are either mad or intending on sending me mad.

Thanks (0)
Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
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By farrcorfe
17th Aug 2022 10:51

Yes, does HMRC ever listen to the profession? Do they ever take notice of what is posted on AccountingWeb. Oh, and more technology equals less common sense

Thanks (2)
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By Chris Floyd
16th Aug 2022 13:15

Thanks Jason.

I had to register a client who has just reached the threshold the other day and was a little unhappy at having to provide my name/dob/NINO but couldn't find a way round it at the time.

I will be saving this article for future reference and crossing my fingers (but not holding my breath) that these issues are resolved sooner rather than later.

Thanks (5)
Replying to Chris Floyd:
VAT
By Jason Croke
16th Aug 2022 15:04

Thanks Chris, glad to have helped.

Thanks (4)
Chris M
By mr. mischief
16th Aug 2022 14:31

Another month, another bit of utterly useless software development from Hideous Muck-ups by Right Charlies. With due apologies to all readers called Charlie who can actually do their jobs properly.

Thanks (8)
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By VATs-enough
16th Aug 2022 16:06

Thanks Jason

Another topical discussion, but one which we quite frankly shouldn't be having in this day and age.

Having completed a client registration earlier last week, all of the above resonates acutely. One further comment/question really;

Are you aware of issues with receiving any sort of acknowledgement that your application was successfully submitted?

I received multiple error messages at the final submission stage, then eventually it appeared to go through okay. However, no acknowledgement message or email, and no suggestion that there is a pending registration anywhere in the agent portal.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Thanks (4)
Replying to VATs-enough:
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By User deleted
16th Aug 2022 16:19

I've found by logging in to the ASA first, then opening the link in Jason's article you can see the application as 'Submitted'.
Unfortunately this only works intermittently, as sometimes when doing the above you are just taken to the screen prompting you to start a new application.

Thanks (5)
VAT
By Jason Croke
16th Aug 2022 17:01

VATs_enough.

I'm not aware of a problem with receiving "submitted" messages, I've received an email once submitted. The email gives you a reference number (but not like the old references numbers, these have a new format).

As CBS123 states, if you visit the registration link and then log into your ASA then you can see the applications you have submitted and their progress, totally logical of course!

HMRC also using a new reference number format of VRS xxxx-xxxx-xxxx which is bit friendlier than the previous mishmash of numbers and letters.

Thanks (3)
Replying to Jason Croke:
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By VATs-enough
18th Aug 2022 10:54

Cheers Jason

Finally managed to get the application submitted. Frustratingly had to rekey the whole thing as it simply disappeared into the ether, and HMRC help desk less than 'helpful' as usual...

"This might be a migration issue, from old system to new system" - NO, this application was created wholly in the new system only

"This might be because you did the application outside of the hours from 9-5 Mon-Fri" - WTF ?! Why should that matter - NO, submission done during work hours on a Tuesday

"Maybe your submission receipt went in to junk/spam etc." - NO, we didn't get an auto acknowledgement OR the email acknowledgement, and certainly not in our junk mail box

One thing I did discover - really important - when you are doing the application form which opens in a new window, you need to make sure you flick back to the ASA agent account tab and do something to stop it logging out through inactivity (after 15mins). If you on the application tab, you wont get any warning of this !

Thanks again

Thanks (3)
Replying to VATs-enough:
Morph
By kevinringer
18th Aug 2022 11:15

VATs-enough wrote:

One thing I did discover - really important - when you are doing the application form which opens in a new window, you need to make sure you flick back to the ASA agent account tab and do something to stop it logging out through inactivity (after 15mins). If you on the application tab, you wont get any warning of this !


That is really useful to know.
Thanks (1)
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By Winnie Wiggleroom
16th Aug 2022 18:44

was there anything wrong with the old method??

Thanks (3)
Replying to Winnie Wiggleroom:
VAT
By Jason Croke
17th Aug 2022 09:10

The old method certainly worked.

I think it is all part of HMRC shifting their underlying software platforms from the old agent infrastructure to their new "scalable" platform. Tax agents were shifted over to the MTD ASA a few months back, clients had to reinput their direct debit details, etc.

Thanks (0)
RedFive
By RedFive
17th Aug 2022 09:21

Thank you for this helpful article.

Just to clarify though you must login to your ASA first, then click the link you signpost in your article (as stated it is NOT in the ASA account as that would be too damn obvious for HMRC).

If you don't login to your new ASA first it still asks for your DOB and NI number despite clicking 'someone else' when registering.

Thanks (3)
By Duggimon
17th Aug 2022 09:22

Thanks Jason, as ever your insight into the increasingly murky world of VAT and VAT technology is almost illuminating enough to stop these changes being annoying!

Thanks (1)
ALISK
By atleastisoundknowledgable...
17th Aug 2022 09:31

I don’t know what I’m doing wrong, but I’ve followed Jason’s link and still had to put in my DoB & NI. I first said I was part of an organisation (ALISK Accounting), then went back and said I wasn’t, either way it asked me for all my personal details.

?

Thanks (0)
Replying to atleastisoundknowledgable...:
VAT
By Jason Croke
17th Aug 2022 09:40

As RedFive has posted, you may need to log into your MTD ASA first and then click the link....although it does also work by clicking the link first and then logging in as that is how I've been doing it.

Also, my article has a link to additional guidance which I recommend following, because some of the questions/screens are not obvious in terms of what HMRC are actually asking . If it is still asking for your DoB then you're either not logged into your MTD ASA or something else is wrong/HMRC have fiddled with it since my article and made it worse.
https://assets-eu-01.kc-usercontent.com/220a4c02-94bf-019b-9bac-51cdc7bf...

ALISK, if you are still going round in circles, then PM me and we can have a quick Teams/Zoom and share the screen and go through it together, you never know you might have discovered yet another glitch.

Thanks (2)
Replying to Jason Croke:
RedFive
By RedFive
17th Aug 2022 10:16

Further to my comment I was inadvertently logged in to the old (normal) agent account when I tried your link.

That’s despite thinking I had logged out so not sure how but anyway it bypassed the login and asked for DOB, NI etc.

So make sure you are logged out completely, then click Jasons link and login to new ASA or log in on a fresh browser to ASA then click link as stated both methods work fine. I’m using the word 'work' in a loose sense.

Thanks (0)
Replying to RedFive:
ALISK
By atleastisoundknowledgable...
17th Aug 2022 14:04

To change between MTD & non-MTD (this is usual web useable we’re talking about, not this vat page), I have to not just log out shut als shut the whole browser down!

Thanks (0)
Replying to Jason Croke:
ALISK
By atleastisoundknowledgable...
17th Aug 2022 14:03

I logged in with my non-MTD details, schoolboy error. Just asked for name, email & phone number now so that’s fine.

Thanks (0)
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By Pravesh Jeebun
17th Aug 2022 09:32

HMRC are nothing but pathetic. It really is about time the professional bodies made strong and meaningful representations to this agency.
Ooops, another three elephants have just flown past my office window!

Thanks (6)
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By Winnie Wiggleroom
17th Aug 2022 09:35

A few months ago I took part in a testing session where I was asked to work through a new proposed VAT registration process and give feedback along the way. There were a number of things I pointed out at the time that could be improved upon, however not once was I asked about or shown this method of getting to the actual process which seems to be the issue.

Thanks (2)
Replying to Winnie Wiggleroom:
VAT
By Jason Croke
17th Aug 2022 10:09

I'd heard that HMRC had approached the CIOT and ICAEW for testing, but not necessarily the best people to test, VAT registrations aren't usually done by Partners or qualified senior staff in a firm (depending no size of course). HMRC did not approach the VAT Practitioners Group (VPG), you know, people who only specialise in all things VAT.

Thanks (3)
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By Self-Employed and Happy
17th Aug 2022 09:40

The exact type of crap that when added to the constant other HMRC crap will just drive people away from the profession.

If they think the tax gap is big now then wait until there aren't many agents left to deal with this [***].

I'm struggling to understand why they couldn't just build a whole new portal for all taxes (if that's what they wanted) then transfer all agents onto the new portal gradually whilst maintaining everyones 64-8's / authorisations.

A complete waste of tax payers money, a complete lack of planning, efficiency and a complete lack of staff able to deal with issues.

When will HMRC actually be held accountable for its absolutely shocking performance?

Dealing with them just 7/8 years ago was fairly easy, now it's gone to absolute [***] and has a huge impact on the business when a problem needs sorting, all this will do is empower the larger businesses who will be able to have staff sitting on hold for ages whereas the smaller practices just have to resign themselves to the fact HMRC really don't care that they can have such a bearing on your efficiency.

Thanks (10)
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By mattchapman
17th Aug 2022 09:46

Thanks for this, we've done a couple of registrations under the new process and it is horrible! Worse still, so far no sign of a VAT number, which used to be emailed within a few days. Has anyone had a successful application and knows the process for actually obtaining the VAT number and how long it typically takes?

Seems like HMRC have just made a perfectly good system completely broken, for no apparent reason.

Thanks (4)
Replying to mattchapman:
VAT
By Jason Croke
17th Aug 2022 10:08

Not had any VAT registrations confirmed as yet, have the submission receipt but so used to having to wait 30 days using the old system, so I'm not in panic mode quite yet!

Thanks (2)
Replying to Jason Croke:
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By mattchapman
17th Aug 2022 11:06

Thanks Jason, Maybe we have been lucky, but we used to get notice of the clients VAT number within a few working days, the client then gets the VAT certificate within a couple of weeks normally. are you saying that you don't usually get notice of a VAT number for clients for 30 days anyway and this is how long it is likely to take now?

Thanks (1)
Replying to mattchapman:
VAT
By Jason Croke
17th Aug 2022 17:08

I can get a client VAT registered* sometimes in a couple of days and sometimes can take a couple of months. These timescales have been all over the place since the start of the year, I can't seem to find any kind of pattern, other than overseas traders certainly take longer than a UK business.

(* as in the time it takes from the moment I press submit on the online VAT registration and HMRC confirming a VAT number has been issued, usually confirmed by email/agent messages).

Thanks (2)
Replying to Jason Croke:
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By mattchapman
18th Aug 2022 07:59

Thanks Jason, I guess, like everyone else, we are at the mercy of HMRC and will just have to wait and see what happens. they need some massive improvements to the new system to make it a better system, currently it's a step back from the old process. Thanks for your thoughts/insights.
Matt

Thanks (1)
Replying to mattchapman:
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By JacquiMBurns
19th Oct 2022 14:32

I submitted one recently on a Friday pm & , having prepared everyone concerned for a long wait, got the VAT number through on Monday. I nearly had a heart attack!

Thanks (0)
Morph
By kevinringer
17th Aug 2022 09:49

Really helpful article Jason, thank you.

"It is ridiculous that HMRC has launched an online process that is inherently broken."

But HMRC have a track record. Take 30/60-day CGT as an example: look at how many problems there were when it was launched. Completely unfit for purpose. HMRC now seems to release as final, software which is still subject to testing. Indeed, HMRC seems to regard us all as mandated testers. The ASA is another example: very poor functionality compared to the old GG and gradually HMRC have been reinstating old GG functionality, but there's still a long way to go. All this is completely against Carter (which incidentally I can no longer find on HMRC's website).

Thanks (3)
Replying to kevinringer:
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By Hugo Fair
17th Aug 2022 15:35

Info is certainly now sporadic and hard to locate ... looks like there's been an attempt to expunge it from history!

What I did manage to find is 22 pages at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukia/2007/37/pdfs/ukia_20070037_en.pdf ... which includes as the "Rationale for Government Intervention":

In July 2005, the Government asked Lord Carter to undertake a Review of HMRC Online Services 3.
The purpose of the review was to look at ways of increasing take up of online services for SA, VAT, CT and PAYE and maximising benefits for customers whilst ensuring that the department continues to deliver sustainable and efficient services that support compliance.

Sound familiar?

[It's an interesting if soul-destroying read].

Thanks (3)
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By Ammie
17th Aug 2022 09:52

They'll probably blame it on the war in Ukraine!

Thanks (3)
Morph
By kevinringer
17th Aug 2022 09:58

HMRC Agent Forum thread VAT-17269 has been discussing Change Of Legal Entity (COLE) registrations that wish to retain the VAT number. On 16 August 2022 HMRC made the following startling admission:

"Since the launch of MTD in 2019 the COLE team have to manually key all changes to the system – these used to happen automatically once the VAT 1 was accepted.
As a result of this the process has been hugely elongated – with a corresponding increase in waiting times.
An application which used to take a few minutes to process now takes several days."

So whilst we have had to digitise, HMRC have gone in the opposite direction, thus the massive delays. The other problem are the errors caused by HMRC manual intervention. I have had a COLE registration come back with a mistakes such as the wrong stagger and HMRC seem unable to fix it. After hitting the phone and everyone in HMRC saying it is someone else's problem, I've had to submit a complaint to try and get it fixed. Dog's dinner. HMRC are a disgrace.

Thanks (1)
Replying to kevinringer:
VAT
By Jason Croke
17th Aug 2022 10:17

Earlier this year, I was told by HMRC that a COLE would take at least 8-12 months to be processed....so this is a sole trader incorporating, so all the details are the same as before, just adding a "Ltd", should not be difficult, no need to do security checks as the sole trader has been VAT registered for years and has a clean nose.

HMRC advised me to just do a new VAT registration and get a new VAT number, which is what we had to do in the end, but it was annoying as we then had to change import documentation, update import agents, etc.

But yes, seems HMRC are reverting to paper for most things now, despite making everyone else go digital.

Why are they manually keying anything in, the technology to scan and read handwriting and typed documents has been around for decades, I can photograph using my phone a McDonalds receipt and it is uploaded and on my accounting software in seconds. No typing or manual entry required. HMRC ought to look into that kind of technology, might speed things up......actually, are we really accepting that HMRC have people typing stuff in manually?

Thanks (2)
Replying to Jason Croke:
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By Self-Employed and Happy
17th Aug 2022 12:47

I am very glad I have made the decisions over the last few months when incorporating from sole trades to advise clients to start with a completely new slate (new VAT Number).

The less HMRC have to think the better.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Jason Croke:
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By JacquiMBurns
17th Aug 2022 14:49

It took HMRC over 2 years to NOT be able to simply transfer a VAT Registration Number from a sole trader to his newly incorporated Ltd company by which time the trader had got completely fed up & deregistered completely!
OK admittedly the staff member who originally tried to accomplish this made the error of following HMRC online guidance, while I was lolling around in a hospital bed, but I sorted this out when I came back to work 2 months later both on the phone & in writing. Of course, this was just as Covid was beginning to bite & HMRC was totally incapable of correcting a simple matter or admitting that their guidance was wrong. Then to cap it all, they said that they couldn't transfer the number because there was a VAT debt against the sole trader account (this was the return on which payment was deferred with HMRC blessing). I must confess I considered retiring &/or emigrating to get away from them!

Thanks (0)
Replying to JacquiMBurns:
Morph
By kevinringer
17th Aug 2022 15:13

Jacqui, why should you consider emigrating when it is HMRC that are to blame? No, they should be deported. I understand the Rwanda flights have available seats.

Thanks (1)
Replying to Jason Croke:
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By JacquiMBurns
19th Oct 2022 14:37

My client got fed up after over 15 months & asked to be deregistered. I got in touch with the very friendly lady I had finally managed to make intelligent contact with (& who became as frustrated as I had) & asked her to deregister it. She did so, at the date I spoke to her rather than the date the last return was submitted & as far as I know, they are still waiting for the final return to be submitted!

Thanks (0)
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By Les Smith
17th Aug 2022 10:58

T0 Jason Croke
Are HMRC staff typing things in manually

Hi Jason, if you think VAT registration is difficult try getting HMRC to change your agent address and contact details. Apart from Corporation Tax all other "services" can only be changed by writing a letter (required individually by each service but sent to the same address) providing your change details. After which further letters with lists of your PAYE and CIS clients so that the client's agents details can be updated. Tony Blair's joined up government has not arrived yet

Thanks (2)
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By tedbuck
17th Aug 2022 11:31

Absolutely mindblowing - how can HMRC be so totally incompetent?

One can only assume that they have lost all staff with experience and are now using trainees, wfh of course, who know nothing of using HMRC's systems.

Apart from anything else if people can't register for VAT the VAT gap is very unlikely to improve!

Come on Mr Chancellor sort these idiots out before the system collapses completely. They really aren't fit for purpose.

Thanks (1)
By Moonbeam
17th Aug 2022 11:35

So depressing to read, despite your excellent efforts to educate us on what to do.
However your bunny did cheer me up!

Thanks (3)
Replying to Moonbeam:
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By Hugo Fair
17th Aug 2022 15:40

“Bunnies can (and will) go to France”

Thanks (2)
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By Vallery Lee
17th Aug 2022 11:57

I wish I had seen this article a week ago when I registered a client for VAT because he had traded over the thresshold. I used the "old" gateway login and apart from the complications that arose from "saving" to ask more questions of the client, as Jason said it manages to lose any answers containing personal information. Finally I was asked to complete a VAT1R which required signatures from both myself and my client. That form stated that the practice would be held jointly responsible for VAT owing - fortunately I trust the client.

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Replying to Vallery Lee:
VAT
By Jason Croke
17th Aug 2022 13:45

HMRC have just clarified that when they require you to be a "VAT Representative " that is not the same as being a "Tax Representative", in other words, HMRC are saying that they've invented a new concept of a "VAT Representative" who isn't jointly liable for the clients VAT liability.

So, a tax agent then.

Tax representatives remain jointly liable for their clients VAT liabilities, but HMC are saying that a tax representative is not the same as a VAT representative 9even though VAT is a tax), don't know why they need to complicate things when we had a perfectly good situation with "tax agent".

Thanks (5)
Replying to Jason Croke:
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By JacquiMBurns
19th Oct 2022 14:39

I'd want to see that in writing from HMRC before believing it. They are not above going back on what they say!

Thanks (0)
By Nick Graves
17th Aug 2022 12:03

And if you go chasing rabbits
And you know you're going to fall
Tell 'em a hookah smoking caterpillar
Has given you the call
He called Alice
When she was just small

When the men on the chessboard
Get up and tell you where to go
And you've just had some kind of mushroom
And your mind is moving low
Go ask Alice
I think she'll know

When logic and proportion
Have fallen sloppy dead
And the White Knight is talking backwards
And the Red Queen's off with her head
Remember what the Dormouse said
Feed your head
Feed your head

Is midday twirly to drop acid?

Thanks (2)

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